Did anyone else see Nadine Dorries’s parliamentary adjournment debate last night on the information that’s provided to women seeking abortions, or as she’s disingenuously taken to calling it, on a “woman’s right to informed consent”?
If you didn’t, and you’re now regretting having missed it, fear not, you can watch it by clicking here
Likewise, you can catch up on what she said by reading the transcript here.
Now I’m not planning to examine in detail everything that Dorries said during her speech (feel free to have at it in the comments though), firstly because I’m liable to get too ranty for my own and indeed anyone else’s good, and secondly because I’d hate to be accused of stalking her, as so many others who’ve gone before me have .
There’s one thing she talked about however that I do want to examine a bit more closely, and that’s this:
“I shall finish by mentioning a book which is to be launched this month. It is published by the charity Forsaken, which is neither pro-life nor pro-choice: it is pro-women. For two years, the charity has put together the stories of women suffering from post-abortion syndrome. Reading the book is so heart-wrenching that we just want to reach out and take their pain away, but we cannot. There is no going back. We cannot make it better; abortion is a procedure to end life-it is final.”
“Hmmm, Forsaken”, I thought when I heard her mention the charity last night, “I’ll have to look them up tomorrow”.
Of course I didn’t think to write it down, and when I got up this morning I’d completely forgotten the bloody name of the organisation, so I had to wait a bit for the Hansard stuff to go up. But then, after a fairly fruitless online search for Forsaken I logged on to Twitter this afternoon and discovered I wasn’t the only one trying to find our more about this mysterious, hitherto unheard of charity.
So now, thanks to medavep‘s sterling detective work, it can be revealed that this is the organisation Dorries was referring to last night.
Is it just me, or is there a bit of a disconnect between Dorries’s statement that Forsaken is “neither pro-life nor pro-choice: it is pro-women“, and the organisation’s website, which not only parps on incessantly about the unproven, designed-to-guilt-trip-women-even-more, made up ailment, “post abortion syndrome,” but which links through to both Care Confidential (“run by the charity Christian Action Research and Education (Care), whose charitable aims, as listed with the Charity Commission, are: “The advancement and propagation of the Christian Gospel and in particular Christian teachings as it bears on or affects national and individual morality and ethics.”) and ARCH (who run the Silent No More campaign, one of whose stated goals is to “Educate the public that abortion is harmful emotionally, physically and spiritually with lasting consequences“)
I suspect that once more Dorries is being slightly less than straight with the truth here, because that really doesn’t look much like a non-aligned organisation to me, in fact it looks decidedly pro-life. Whatever, I’m sure all will be revealed soon enough.
Another thing that did strike me about Dorries’s speech though was this little snippet:
“Reading the book is so heart-wrenching that we just want to reach out and take their pain away, but we cannot.”
And from the Forsaken website:
“It is heart-wrenching, and you may feel an overwhelming desire to hold them and take away their pain.”
Lol. Still, originality’s never exactly been Dorries’s forté has it?
Too Much To Say For Myself 
I notice too that Forsaken launched in October 2010. Hm…
There is no mentionon this forsaken site that it is a charity ( as I believe #Dorries claimed). The site also has not details of ownership. Perhaps his needs to be clarified?
That makes it sound fairly all-encompassing, when the book features five women’s stories. Qualitative data is (obviously) very valuable, but it seems astonishingly slim for an MP to be citing. While a sample size of five might be revealing for some incredibly rare things, I imagine substantially more women than that in Taunton alone had abortions over two years.
But Dorries is what she is. Given half a chance, she’d rely on a sample size of Dorries.
“For two years, the charity has put together the stories of women suffering from post-abortion syndrome.”
Like most PROLIFE orgs, they seem to be a bit fast and loose with the truth.
If this charity has been doing this work for two years, then why is it NOT listed on the Charity Commission website?
http://www.charity-commission.gov.uk/
Nor on the Forsaken website do they mention a registered charity number ANYWHERE. Look closer at the website, check the About Us and Who We Are pages. Sure, they are placeholders, but if this is an established organisation as they claim to be, I would expect at least two names and contact details there. In assessing that website, it frankly looks like a scamming website. Oh, and you cannot infer or claim to be a charity just because you associate with other (nutter) charities.
Should we donate a link to Monty Python’s “Every Sperm is Sacred” clip? That is far more donation than they deserve.
Even in the teeth of pretty conclusive and reliable evidence establishing, for once, her true whereabouts, she manages nonetheless, it seems, to retain the capacity to mislead her constituents.
I foresee a bright future for her within the Poetic Licensing Authority operating out of Number 10 under that other champion of credibility, Andy Coulson.
I haven’t yet got a precise fix on the 70/30 split in her speech, but it does start rather well – you know, with France lacking any ‘religious or cultural influences’ that might bear on the incidence of abortion.
Well its definitely not a registered charity – nowt on the CC’s register
Well, if you want to know about ownership, start with a simple <a href="http://webwhois.nic.uk/cgi-bin/whois.cgi?query=forsaken-taunton.org.uk&WHOIS+Submit.x=17&WHOIS+Submit.y=5"WHOIS query. Then you can take the address you find and plug it in to Google, and find that the Forsaken web address was set up by someone at the same address as “Jo Williams Coaching” – “Marriage Counselor, Reiki Therapist, Relationship Therapist, Life Coach, Family Counselor” (Payment Accepted: Maestro, Solo, Cheque, Invoice, Cash, Delta, Switch, Electron, MasterCard, Visa )…
I don’t know about you, but for me, the words “Life Coach” set off klaxons in my head, and when you add “Reiki Therapist”, it’d red alert for nonsense.
I also particularly like how they haven’t managed to put anything on the “Who We Are” pages, but the “Donation” page is working just fine… Interesting that the book appears to be more-or-less anonymous too.
too angry to write!
my friend is staff at bristol uni, and they have a pro life (anti abortion thank you very much) society. when she called this in to question she was told that the pro life pro choice debate was not conclusive and that the society want to distance themselves from the violent actions of anti abortionists in usa – as if not killing people is something you should give people a cookie for.
The other organisation linked to Forsaken, “Alternatives”, was set up by a local Charismatic church, of which the people behind “Forsaken” are members. See here.
Oooooh, I’m so glad you mentioned this Cath, because the other day I spotted this piece in the independent (by a woman who has never had an abortion herself BTW) that made EXACTLY the same assumption, and I was infuriated.
http://blogs.independent.co.uk/2010/10/25/bad-timing-repeat-abortions-are-on-the-rise/
I personally find it saddening that somebody could have abortion after abortion without a care in the world – to me, that is equivalent to just throwing away potential lives, but I find it hard to believe that many people could go through that without feeling some amount of guilt, conscious or not. They have to live with that for the rest of their lives, and I do not envy them one bit. Some argue that abortion is wrong in even the most traumatic circumstances – using the old ‘what about those who desperately want but are not able to have children?’ idea, but who are we to judge others on their decisions – we can never, ever know exactly what others are thinking, and I am sure (well, I sincerely hope) that nobody would go straight into an abortion without making an informed decision.
There’s no sanctimonious claptrap like handwringing, “but I’m just concerned for your welfare” sanctimonious claptrap. Does this idiot think women think “hell, nothing else to do, x factors a bit crap this week, I’ll get myself knocked up so I can have an abortion”?
I can’t help wondering if women would feel less ‘guilty’ about abortions if the anti abortion crowd (let’s call a spade a spade) didn’t constantly spread this stuff about what a heart wrenching decision it is. Yes there may be some circumstances – chiefly ones where, if there personal circumstances were different, they would want to have a child, where abortion IS a less than ideal choice. And whose fault is that, Ms Dorries if women have abortions because they haven’t got anywhere to live or any money? The pro life crowd would surely be better off pouring their energies into ensuring the welfare of these children once they’re born, but not much chance of that.
Oh and cos this comment just got eaten by the spamulator when it had two links, here’s the second bit of it….
Anyway the best piece ever written on the whole subject is this one by Caitlin Moran, who actually knows what she’s talking about.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/caitlin_moran/article1645946.ece
‘their’ not ‘there’.
Well, here is an idea for the anti-abortionists – apparently it is no big deal carrying an unwanted pregnancy to term (so you can give the kid away to some childless couple or something) – so, how about some of these anti-abortion women stepping up to the plate? Embryonic transfer – the woman who does not want the pregnancy gets in touch with this group, and one of the anti-abortionists puts her uterus into service.
Somehow, I don’t think they will be all over this solution.
Funny how it is fine to
tellorder some other uterus to be put into service.Guess what – straight back atchya anti-abortionists!
Well it is no big deal carrying a pregnancy to term is it, apart from the slight risk of dying, which no one ever mentions. And yes this DOES happen, even in the UK.
http://www.patient.co.uk/doctor/Maternal-Mortality.htm
A friend of mine (who had a job compiling statistics on pregnancy) told me that having an abortion is always safer, medically, than giving birth. Where she worked, the wife of one of the consultants died giving birth. Don’t tell me that’s lack of care…..
PS I love the idea. Let’s float it….
Oh apparently, even though I’ve never had an abortion, I still need counselling.
If you have experienced an abortion, or been involved with someone who has, you may be struggling to come to peace with that decision. Many are affected by after abortion trauma:
◦the woman who had the abortion,
◦the person who paid for an abortion
◦children that were told their lives would be easier because a younger sibling was aborted
◦the friend who drove a woman to the clinic pregnant, and back home “un” pregnant
◦the dad whose wife/girlfriend chose abortion against his better judgment, consent or even without his knowledge
◦a school counsellor who scheduled the appointment
◦the grandparent who talked, supported or drove their daughter to the abortion or may not even had known of their son/daughter’s pregnancy.
◦a family member, friend, counsellor or clergy, who tried to talk a mother/father out of an abortion, and failed
◦the nurse, clinic worker or abortion doctor who later regrets their participation in taking the lives of the unborn
Yes, I have ‘paid for an abortion’ in that I gave someone who didn’t have the cash the money to do it. And I’d do it again. I am also the friend of women who’ve had abortions.
http://www.archtrust.org.uk/Recovery.htm
Do you reckon this counselling is FREE? Do you reckon I should go for some?
I really have to ask about this one:
◦the grandparent who talked, supported or drove their daughter to the abortion or may not even had known of their son/daughter’s pregnancy.
Yes. Because lots of SONS get pregnant.
Gosh, what an extensive list. Perhaps they should include:
*anyone who lived in the same town/city as someone who had an abortion
*anybody who has heard the word abortion
I feel as if I am missing out. I might just get a turkey baster, get myself pregnant, just so I can have an abortion and get all this wonderful counselling. Call me skeptical, but I reckon that most of this counselling would follow the lines of “You had an abortion. Abortion is wrong and traumatic. You are a murderer just like Harold Shipman. You will burn in hell.” Helpful. Sign me up.
I get sick of the abortion rhetoric that paints it always as “traumatic”, as I would think that carrying a baby to term then giving it up for adoption is far more traumatic than an early abortion. Yet the anti-choicers always insist it is the opposite. This is completely dishonest, much like most of their anti-choice propaganda, this suspicious website/book included.
That list is just hilarious Polly, and actually pretty fucking enraging.
Note to Arch. If a son (?)/daughter aborts a foetus there is no grandchild, therefore there are no grandparents. End of.
Right, that said I now need to go and make a list of all the people who’ve known me since I had my abortion. There’s obviously a possibility that I may have contaminated them with my murderous urges and my desire to be “un pregnant”. They might all need counselling!
Perhaps I should carry a bell and start ringing it and mumbling “unclean” whenever anyone comes near.
After all, I wouldn’t want people getting too close and catching “after abortion trauma” off me.
After all, I wouldn’t want people getting too close and catching “after abortion trauma” off me.
Argh! Too late!
I think just by reading your blog I have somehow been traumatically affected by post-abortion trauma. We should contact that archtrust website and let them know that their list is not exhaustive enough.
Note to Arch. If a son (?)/daughter aborts a foetus there is no grandchild, therefore there are no grandparents. End of.
I too thought that the grandparent thing was very weird phrasing, I seriously had to read it three times to figure out what the hell they were talking about. But I gather one can be the proud grandparent of a clump of cells? Quick, frame the ultrasound picture and put it on the mantle.
Which reminds me: all heterosexual women engaging in PIV should be checking their sanity products of every period, just in case they have miscarried (ie spontaneous abortion). OMG, the carnage! And OMG, women just have not been made to feel guilty enough for spontaneous abortions. Heterosexual women – you could be a mass murderer and not even know it!
so enraging!
and yes, are all those anti choice people calling for better benefits for single mothers, universal free childcare etc etc? i don’t think they are, especially the majority of the tory front bench.
they seem to think an unwanted pregnancy has no consequence, which really angers me. real, actual consequences, rather than a made up name for a made up syndrome.
of course some women find abortion traumatising and difficult. of course they do. partly because of the huge guilt trips they are made to go on, partly because they felt they had to have an abortion because their options were limited (by a society that hates young mums/single mums/working mums etc etc). but women also feel relieved and don’t suffer from a made up illness.
rage rage rage!
Actually Cath it’s post abortion trauma. Or PAT. Cos they have a way with an acronym.
I have to say the video is very funny, they obviously couldn’t afford proper actors. So there is a scene in which a women gazes out of a window, looking not really traumatised, but mildly narked, as if the council had refused to empty the bins again because she’d put the recycling in the wrong one. Also apparently PAT makes you walk on beaches, gazing into the middle distance, while piano music plays in the background. And then you have to talk to a woman who’s motherly but professional looking,( in a slightly frumpy yet also brisk way), to get over it all.
Anyway how much does an 0845 number cost? I think we should all ring up and say we’ve got PAT.
Oh sorry the video’s here, it’s very Victoria Wood.
http://www.archtrust.org.uk/AboutUs.htm
Thank goodness I watched that video – next time I gaze thoughtfully out the window, I will get myself checked for PAT. Can’t be too careful. Or I might become really helpful to others, if I see anyone strolling slowly on a beach, I shall go up to them and insist they get PAT counselling.
Did you look at the news page?
Only three news articles, but the most recent two were “dear god, what about the menz?”. Note that the links are to a site called “unchoice”. Nice of the anti-feminists to appropriate our language.
I’ve had two abortions and I would compare the experiences to getting cavities filled, also for which I have never needed counselling.
For every woman who has had an abortion a man has been involved. For me it was two abortions.
I think that because we live in such a visual world where we can’t see the baby from conception, it just doesn’t seem real. I know this may seem like a simple analogy, but … we cannot see corn that was just planted; yet, that doesn’t make it any less a vegetable.
My story begins at 16 when I heard that first “I’m pregnant” from my girlfriend. I can remember being scared and a little confused about how it all happened. I asked all of the questions like, “I thought you were protected,” and anything else I could think of to say rather than taking responsibility for my actions.
I can remember when the phone call came to my parents. My feelings of being scared and confused changed to terrified and ashamed. I don’t know how much time passed from the phone call until my parents came to talk with me, but it felt like an eternity. I remember putting on my headphones with the music cranked up, not wanting to face the consequences of my actions as my parents were trying to talk to me. I wanted it all to go away.
I’m sure my parents were just as scared and that thoughts of “what’s next” were running through their minds. Both sets of parents got involved, and it ended with the untimely death of Jonathan Michael, who would now be 30-plus years old and doing something I never gave him the chance to do.
I don’t remember thinking a whole lot about the abortion. In my busy, important life as a teenager, sex, drugs, and rock and roll took over with a steady diet of Pink Floyd and others. It didn’t take long for this lifestyle to catch up with me; I got myself in the same situation with another girlfriend.
Ah yes, your ‘lifestyle’ just ‘caught up with you’. Not your responsibility in having penetrative sex at all.
To quote the specials:
Ain’t you heard of the starving millions
Ain’t you heard of contraception
Look dudes, here are two simple ways to avoid PAT. 1) keep your penis away from vaginas 2)if you really can’t do that, use a condom.
Not 100% foolproof, like any contraceptive method, hence the need for abortion, but TWO pregnant girlfriends by 17 does look an awful lot like carelessness. As does saying ‘I thought you were protected’ without enquiring further.
I should add, by the way, that Pink Floyd do not cause pregnancy. Lots of other things, but not pregnancy.
Actually Valerie I nearly did need counselling after a root canal, as I staggered into the nearest Boots crying, ‘give me the strongest painkillers you’ve got!’
I asked all of the questions like, “I thought you were protected,”
Male entitlement bingo. They rarely think of the consequences of PIV, because they aren’t the ones who will get pregnant. They can just as easily walk away from the situation – and often do.
Frankly, the story of this 17yo does NOT ring true. Not the language, not the attitudes – this is an adult ‘voice’.
Add to that, that the only two personal stories listed on their news page were “what about the poor menz!” and it is clear that this organisation don’t give a flying fuck about women, or wrecking their lives. It’s all very well talking about “baybees”, but generally you are stuck with them for a miniumum 16-18 years, and this current generation 30 years (still living at home FFS). I will bet that the long term prospect of raising a child through to teens and beyond is not mentioned in the counselling. Nor would the mention the costs of raising the child for this length of time. If they were truly honest, they would give the prospective parents a poohey diaper to sniff and mention they have to deal with that X times per day.
Well I presume from the reference to the kid who would now have been 30, the dude is 46. But he makes a hell of a lot of assumptions about that child – that it would have been born at all and not miscarried, that it would have been born alive, that the mother would have survived the birth, that the child would have been born without disabilities, never had a serious childhood illness, or all the the other 101 things you take a gamble, yes a gamble, on when you go in for parenthood.
I know people who are the parents of kids with chronic life threatening illness from birth, have disabilities, have had childhood cancers. Parenting is NOT a walk in the park, it’s a bloody hard job. And it never ends, what about the adult parents of people with chronic mental illness for example (one of Cath’s friends wrote a piece on here about that subject).
Which is why, as Caitlin Moran says, nobody should become a parent who isn’t 100% sure that that’s what they really want to do, right here, right now, and are willing to take on the HUGE responsibility.
Yes I agree.
I have yet to see any pro-life/anti-choice group tell both sides as it were – the responsibilities of child raising, the long term nature of the deal, and the additional burden if the child is disabled in some way. It’s all about a glossed-over fairytale version of cutesy widdle baybees, healthy of course.
I only just read that story in its entirety, and got the whole picture. What’s up with naming the blobs btw? Next time I have a cold I might name the snot, roughly the same size clump of cells.
It is interesting to see the religious contradiction in all of this. Abortion being the ‘mortal sin’ akin to murder of a birthed human. However, in his story at the end, “Jesus Christ has forgiven my past and continues to strengthen me”. So in essence, according to the xtian stuff, you can do bad things and JC will forgive you anyway. So what’s the big deal as long as you are sorry?
If the dude in this story was truly serious about the religious doctrine “till death do us part”, then he would not have divorced his wife #1, the mother of his two sons he does not see – but he has already upgraded to the new wifey. So we see his true attitudes towards women, that of incubators for his sperm, and as an emotional support mechanism JUST FOR HIM. What a catch!
But what a dick. He gets the first girlfriend pregnant at 16, with he and his parents involved in the process, then turns around and does it again at 17?
Keep it in your pants boy-o. Remember religious dudes, Gawd frowns upon all the pre-marital sex as well. Flippin’ hypocrits.
To borrow from Wilde, Lady Bracknell:
To knock up one girl, Mr. Worthing, may be regarded as a misfortune. To knock up two looks like carelessness.
@ polly
Yeah I’ve had a root canal too. *Way* worse than an abortion.
Parenthood though, even all else being equal, is as you say, bloody hard work. Hardest job I’ve ever had, and I’m a hard worker.
Perhaps I should complete a thought before clicking ‘Post Comment’. Just saying I’m not looking for pats on the head, only I wish society wouldn’t glamorise motherhood so.
Adding ‘Forsaken’ to my list of ‘highly dodgy groups to keep an eye on’. ‘Post abortion syndrome’ indeed. Am going to try to put together something on all these groups and what influence they could have.