There’s always a risk when you hold other people up as icons that at some point they’ll do or say something to shatter all your previously held illusions about them. I know for instance that a lot of women, particularly younger women, have felt betrayed by the quite odious position Naomi Wolf has chosen to take on the Assange case (I made my own view clear on that in this comment on her recent CiF piece), but as I’ve never held Wolf up as any great feminist icon, I couldn’t really share in that disappointment.
With Helena Kennedy though it’s a different matter. Because I’ve long been a fan of hers. And now I just feel let down.
When I first saw that Kennedy was on Assange’s defence team I consoled myself with the thought that at least if she was involved there’d be less chance of the defence resorting to victim blaming or any other rape apologist shite. This is after all the woman who penned the epic “Eve Was Framed“, a book that focused on “the treatment of women in our courts – at the prejudices of judges, the misconceptions of jurors, the labyrinths of court procedures and the influence of the media.”
And she’s also the woman who wrote this in the Independent back in 2001:
“The most controversial aspect of the law on rape is the defence of “honest belief in consent”. It was established in the case of Morgan (1974) that if a defendant had an honest but mistaken belief that the woman was consenting, then he was not guilty of rape.
In most rape cases the judge explains to the jury that even if they are satisfied that the woman did not consent to sex, the accused should be acquitted if he honestly thought she was consenting. It makes securing a conviction very difficult in rape trials…..
….However, all is not lost. The law does not require that the reasonableness of a defendant’s belief is tested. The defence is easy to use and difficult to disprove. It perpetuates stereotypes about women and whether “no” means “no”. But the Home Office consultation paper “Setting the Boundaries” recommends that the doctrine of honest belief in consent should be maintained but with the addition of circumstances where the defence could not be used: for example, “where there was self-induced intoxication, recklessness as to consent, or if the accused did not take reasonable steps to ascertain free agreement at the time.” The substitution of the language of “free agreement” for consent forces a rethink of what sex is about – not passive women consenting to penetration but a couple engaged in intimacy.“
I told myself that Kennedy was a human rights lawyer; that she may well believe Assange to be innocent (and I reiterate, I don’t know and neither does anyone else know whether he’s innocent or guilty, and that’s not what this piece is about), and that she may well be convinced that his human rights are in danger of being breached in some way: so there are probably valid reasons for her to take up his cause. Well that’s how I justified it all anyway.
I also reminded myself that Kennedy has long been an advocate for rape survivors, that she’s a patron of the South Essex Rape and Incest Crisis Centre, that all in all she’s a good woman, a sound feminist, and damn it all, someone I have for many many years looked up to.
And then this week happened.
Ok, so I flinched a bit when I saw this photo of her and Assange embracing each other all over the media, but then I went through my list of possible justifications for her involvement in the case all over again until I felt a bit better about it. And then I reminded myself again that if she was on his defence at least she’d make sure they steered clear of any naff rape apologism.
Until yesterday that is, when this happened:
“Geoffrey Robertson QC told the extradition hearing, at Belmarsh magistrate’s court in south London, that any resistance had been “unarticulated” on the part of Miss A, who has accused the WikiLeaks founder of ripping off her clothes, snapping a necklace, pinning her down and trying to force himself on her without wearing a condom.
“In so far as Mr Assange held her arms and there was a forceful spreading of her legs, there’s no allegation that this was without her consent,” he said.
“Sexual encounters have their ups and downs, their ebbs and flows. What may be unwanted one moment can with further empathy become desired. These complex human interactions are not criminal in this country.”
The argument that Assange used the weight of his body to pin her down “describes what is usually termed the missionary position,” he said.”
And yes, I know it was Geoffrey Robertson QC spouting all that guff, but Helena Kennedy’s on his team ffs! And now she will always, in my mind at least, be associated with one of the worst, naffest, most enraging bloody rape defence arguments ever.
Ohhh Helena. Why? Just why?
but he hasn’t been charged with rape. so it’s not a defence in a courtroom to a charge of rape.
it’s a defence as to why he shouldn’t be extradited to face non-specified charges that haven’t yet been made.
can you see the difference?
and I say that in genuine upsetness myself. from a different direction. not as a ‘troll’ or whatever else.
I am trying to make sense of this case as well as you.
Yes I know the difference perfectly well QRG. But I’m referring to those specific comments, which relate to the allegations of rape/sexual assault that have been made against him. Robertson’s comment here is not “Assange shouldn’t be extradited because…..”, if it was I’d have no problem with it: his comment is basically: “this isn’t rape, because she didn’t say no.”
Assange denies all the allegations, and is fighting the extradition request. He has not been charged. The defence argues that the sexual behaviour would not amount to rape and sexual assault in English law, and that the European arrest warrant against him was invalid.
But Clare Montgomery QC, for the Swedish prosecutor, said of Miss A’s account: “In popular language, that’s violence.” The account given by Miss B, meanwhile, “would undoubtedly be rape here. If you penetrate a sleeping woman there’s an evidential assumption that she did not consent.”
I really want to know if someone’s slipped Class A’s into Geoffrey Robertson’s tea. OF COURSE penetration without consent is rape Geoffers, learn some bloody law, you’re meant to be a QC. And WTF is with the ‘Yes means no’ shit?
To be pedantic, no: ‘complex human interactions’ are not a criminal offence in this country. Sexual intercourse without consent however, very much a crime!
FFS….
but he hasn’t been charged with rape. so it’s not a defence in a courtroom to a charge of rape.
it’s a defence as to why he shouldn’t be extradited to face non-specified charges that haven’t yet been made.
can you see the difference?
I certainly can see the difference QRG. Which makes Geoffrey Robertson QC’s remarks all the more extraordinary. By all means suggest that a proper procedure is not being followed, and do what he is being paid to do, which is to defend Mr Assange against extradition.
Do not talk absolute gobshite about what is and isn’t rape, and suggest that women are too stupid to know their own minds, and with a little pinning down, they might develop some empathy and decide they wanted a good fuck after all!
I’d really like to see Helena Kennedy disassociate herself from this, but not much chance, I fear.
Spot on.
but he’s making the comments in the context of the extradition case.
Maybe that is a problem in itself. I do not know how extradition works.
But this is not the case that is trying assange for rape and that is how everyone is presenting it.
It’s doing my head in.
I would like to put the following imaginary scenario to Geoffrey Robertson.
A)A man (let’s call him Julian) has penetrative sexual intercourse with a woman (let’s call her Miss A) without her consent.
B)An hour later, Julian has penetrative sexual intercourse with the woman WITH her consent.
Question: Is instance A) rape? Or is G Robertson QC saying that the consent in instance B) magically makes instance A) not rape.
Answers on a page torn from a criminal law textbook…
I don’t know Polly but if that happens how are the people A) and B) supposed to make sense of it?
It all happens in one evening. They have emotions and desire.
How is it simple?
It’s called Law QRG. It may not be simple emotionally. Legally it’s really simple, believe me. Geoffrey Robertson QC is a lawyer, not a therapist. And he’s talking bullshit about what the LAW is.
What I just described is an actual real life scenario. It happens. And the law is really, really simple.
Sexual intercourse without consent (or at the very least a reasonable belief in consent) is rape.
No matter what happened a)before or b)afterwards.
No matter whether the Moon is in Uranus, or who is doing the raping.
Now if Julian Assange (or anyone else) DID NOT have sex with someone without their consent, he is not guilty of rape. Until he is PROVEN GUILTY, under UK Law he is presumed innocent. So we have no idea whether or not he’s guilty of rape or not, he hasn’t been tried, or I believe charged.
However Geoffrey Robertson QC does not seem to understand English Criminal Law. That’s my beef here.
English and Welsh Criminal Law, she added for fear of offending any Welsh readers.
Oh and to clarify: What Robertson is trying to do (in the context of an extradition case) is to suggest that the acts Assange is alleged to have committed would not be rape in England and Wales, and that the therefore the European arrest warrant is invalid.
Unfortunately he’s talking absolute bollocks. Because sexual intercourse without consent, even IF the person subsequently consents is still rape. It’s that whole ‘linear nature of time’ thing again. It’s not rape from the point of consent onwards, while the victim is not consenting however, it’s rape.
So even if a person ‘develops empathy’ with a person who is raping them, and says ‘oh go on then, you’ve obviously had a hard life, poor dear’, the rapist was still a rapist BEFORE their victim changed their mind.
The charges that he will face are not “non-specified”.
That Robertson can so shamelessly argue that Assange used force and that there was really no problem with that, is appalling.
“there’s no allegation that this was without her consent,” – yes there is, it’s that charge of “unlawful coercion” that will be brought in relation to this incident. The fact that she brought the inicdent to the attention of the police IS the allegation that it was without her consent, her account that she was forced IS the allegation.
I don’t understand how Helena Kennedy can stand behind this.
if Rape Law is simple why do we argue about it. why is it different in different countries? why is it so difficult to get convictions?
I don’t have a view on Robertson but I know rape law isn’t simple.
An allegation of unlawful coercian is a serious one and can’t be brushed away with an appalling assertion that it was merely the missionary position. It’s an attempt to normalise coercive penetration. Shameful indeed.
‘So even if a person ‘develops empathy’ with a person who is raping them, and says ‘oh go on then, you’ve obviously had a hard life, poor dear’, the rapist was still a rapist BEFORE their victim changed their mind.’
I am glad you are not a rape lawyer polly. I think you are a bit er… biased!
No QRG, far from it, I understand what the criminal law is. Consent to a SUBSEQUENT act of intercourse is not retrospective. Any more than consent to a PREVIOUS act of intercourse means a person consents to a subsequent one.
I’m glad you’re not a rape lawyer, because without wishing to be TOO rude, you don’t seem to have a grasp of some relatively simple concepts. Mind you, neither does Geoffrey Robertson QC.
Why is rape law different in different countries QRG – well because different countries have different laws, Doh! However the only law that Geoffrey Robertson is concerning himself with here is the law of England and Wales. Which is quite clear.
Why is it so difficult to get convictions? That’s a matter of the evidence presented, and of proof, which is ENTIRELY different from what the law is. The law on burglary is pretty clear. However people are hardly ever convicted of it. The clear up rate is appalling.
Why do we argue about it? Well maybe because some of us understand what the law is and some of us don’t.
I thank you
Polly (2:1 degree and postgraduate diploma, with commendation, in LAW).
Thank you Polly QC
from QRG (PhD in GENDER studies)
XX
Robertson does indeed seem to be conducting some kind of attempt at a kangaroo court, trying the assertions before an actual trial. They can only be tried in the appropriate forum (a Swedish court). Until then Assange is innocent, until proven otherwise.
However for the umpteenth time, that is not what Robertson was supposed to be arguing. He was supposed to be arguing that Assange had been accused of something that is not a crime in England and Wales. Given his OWN summation of the facts, he is quite clearly WRONG in this.
alleged facts, I should have said. What a swedish court will decide on is whether the alleged facts are true or false.
Unfortunately QRG Mr Assange is subject to a legal process, not a gender studies one.
i read that in the guardian the other day. the bit about how sometimes you might not want it at first, but then you do…it is so much like all those bloody film scenes where the woman fights the hero off, and then goes limp and moony eyed. it is this whole romanticism of she didn’t think she wanted it, but then his sheer manliness overpowered her. it’s bullshit. but that is what Robertson seems to think about women, and rape. that we all want it really, even when we say we don’t.
it makes me feel a bit sick in my mouth to be honest.
Also, as you QRG and Cath say, if this is about extradition, why is Robertson trying to re-define what rape means. And does anyone apart from Assange and his legal team REALLY believe that if Assange is extradicted to Sweden on sexual assault charges, he’ll be secretly sent to the USA to face the death penalty? Last time i checked, it was the UK who were all eager to turn their back on that nice little rule we have to not extradite people to countries where they have the death penalty if the USA really, really want us to.
And Robertson’s frothing at the mouth about Marianne Ny being a man hating radical feminist? At least she’s not a woman hating, rape apologist bigot.
Thank you so much for being a sane voice in this whole mess Cath. It’s nice to know there is a friendly corner of the web to visit.
I think the whole case has been a ‘kangaroo court’. the ‘other side’ have also made pronouncements about the details of the case before charges have been made. This is probably inevitable with such a high profile case.
What I am not sure about though, is if he has been ‘accused’ of something this doesn’t determine what the actual ‘charges’ will be. What with the added chance he could be charged with something akin to ‘treason’ by the US when he gets to Sweden, you can see why he and his team are trying to avoid extradition. And why the case has blown up in the media, making the chances of a ‘fair trial’ for anyone concerned in the assault case, pretty slim.
polly= rape law is totally gendered or why would feminists be going on about it?
My PHD is in gender discourse and legal discourse is still discourse. As Foucault has acknowledged.
‘And Robertson’s frothing at the mouth about Marianne Ny being a man hating radical feminist? At least she’s not a woman hating, rape apologist bigot’
I don’t see why one of these is worse than the other sianushka?
I’m just going to translate Robertson’s words:
Sexual encounters have their ups and downs, their ebbs and flows.
People can change their mind during a sexual encounter (true).
What may be unwanted one moment can with further empathy become desired.
People can not consent to something and then change their mind (true)
These complex human interactions are not criminal in this country.”
If someone is not consenting to an act of intercourse, and subsequently consents AFTER an act has occurred, this is not rape.
FALSE. Big fat FALSE. Sexual intercourse without consent is rape, no matter what happened before or afterwards.
But what Robertson is also implying here is that ‘no means yes’. Or ‘lack of no means yes’.
Now let’s just run over that rape law again.
If a person has intercourse without a ‘reasonable belief’ in consent, they are guilty of rape. What does this mean?
In the offences of rape, assault by penetration, sexual assault and causing a person to engage in sexual activity without consent, a person (A) is guilty of an offence if (s)he:
Acts intentionally;
(B) does not consent to the act; and
(A) does not reasonably believe that B consents.
Deciding whether a belief is reasonable is to be determined having regard to all the circumstances, including any steps A has taken to ascertain whether B consents (subsection (2) of sections 1-4). It is likely that this will include a defendant’s attributes, such as disability or extreme youth, but not if (s)he has any particular fetishes.
This is a major change in the law and the Act abolishes the Morgan defence of a genuine though unreasonably mistaken belief as to the consent of the complainant. It means that the defendant (A) has the responsibility to ensure that (B) consents to the sexual activity at the time in question. It will be important for the police to ask the offender in interview what steps (s)he took to satisfy him or herself that the complainant consented in order to show his or her state of mind at the time.
The test of reasonable belief is a subjective test with an objective element. The best way of dealing with this issue is to ask two questions:
(i) Did the defendant believe the complainant consented? This relates to his or her personal capacity to evaluate consent (the subjective element of the test).
(ii) If so, did the defendant reasonably believe it? It will be for the jury to decide if his or her belief was reasonable (the objective element).
It is FOR THE JURY TO DECIDE. Not Geoffrey ‘kangaroo’ Robertson QC, but the Jury.
http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/sexual_offences_act/#Consent
Foucault ain’t a judge QRG. Mr Assange is appealing against extradition.
Were I to be appealing against extradition, I’d want a proper lawyer. Remind me to not get Geoffrey Robertson QC if that ever happens.
Marianne Ny was described as a ‘malicious radical feminist’ by retired judge Brita Sundberg-Weitman. The term radical feminist is not automatically equated with man hating.
i read that in the guardian the other day. the bit about how sometimes you might not want it at first, but then you do…it is so much like all those bloody film scenes where the woman fights the hero off, and then goes limp and moony eyed. it is this whole romanticism of she didn’t think she wanted it, but then his sheer manliness overpowered her. it’s bullshit. but that is what Robertson seems to think about women, and rape. that we all want it really, even when we say we don’t.
it makes me feel a bit sick in my mouth to be honest
Presactly.
You are not a judge either Polly. You are interpreting words.
Foucault knew more about interpreting words than you, me, or Robertson QC.
Actually rape law ISN’T ‘totally’ gendered QRG since men can be raped. And women can commit rape.
Feminists go on about it, because the way the law is practised is gendered. And because more women than men, according to the information we have, are raped. Not the law itself. Our present law is much more gender neutral than it was in the past.
(A) does not reasonably believe that B consents.
Deciding whether a belief is reasonable is to be determined having regard to all the circumstances, including any steps A has taken to ascertain whether B consents (subsection (2) of sections 1-4). It is likely that this will include a defendant’s attributes, such as disability or extreme youth, but not if (s)he has any particular fetishes.
what does it mean that it won’t be taken into account if the defendant has any particular fetishes?
Male rape only became illegal in scotland in 2009. This shows how gendered the law is. It is changing but the centuries of history behind those changes mean as you say Polly that the practice of the law is gendered .
Whether or not I’m a judge is irrelevant QRG. In England and Wales it’s the Jury who decide whether – on the evidence presented to them a) a person who alleges rape didn’t consent and b) whether the alleged rapist had a reasonable belief in consent. The judge directs the jury on the law. But the jury makes the decision.
The jury. Not the Judge, not the prosecuting counsel, not the counsel for the defence. The jury. That is why currently Julian Assange is completely innocent, as he will remain, UNLESS he is proved guilty of an offence.
Geoffrey Robertson QC is however completely wrong on the law – I’ve provided a link and you can read that for yourself.
Now, no matter how many times you talk about Foucault, that’s still the case.
I read the comments from Robertson before Polly. I don’t rely on you for all my legal information .
what does it mean that it won’t be taken into account if the defendant has any particular fetishes?
Exactly what it says on the tin. A defendant with a particular fetish will not be treated differently to a defendant who does not have that fetish, when the jury decides if they reasonably believe someone consented. The same standard will be applied to both.
I don’t think he is wrong. I think he is saying that ‘consent’ becomes unclear in a situation whereby someone can be consenting at one point and not at another during the same sexual encounter.
I have read the ‘allegations’ and the various accounts and some of what is described sounds like some sexual encounters I have had. I do not consider that I was raped in those encounters. But I think others would.
This suggests to me that ‘rape’ is a very complex issue. And consent is something that doesn’t just get switched on and off like a light.
And when you take into account ‘fetishes’-I do not know what that phrase in the law means- it gets even more complex.
Well Robertson actually SAID his comments QRG. And he is a QC. And Helena Kennedy QC is on his team. He’s still talking bollocks.
don’t think he is wrong. I think he is saying that ‘consent’ becomes unclear in a situation whereby someone can be consenting at one point and not at another during the same sexual encounter.
That is FOR THE JURY TO DECIDE. For the nine zillionth time, Robertson is claiming that Assange is accused of something that is not a crime in England and Wales. He’s wrong. It’s an extradition hearing. Not a trial.
But Clare Montgomery QC, for the Swedish prosecutor, said of Miss A’s account: “In popular language, that’s violence.” The account given by Miss B, meanwhile, “would undoubtedly be rape here. If you penetrate a sleeping woman there’s an evidential assumption that she did not consent.”
Clare Montgomery QC, actually understands the law!
but the law makes people guilty before they are tried. if you say miss B’s account would be ‘rape’ that is saying miss B was raped, by the man who had sex with her. This makes him guilty before a trial.
There is a chance the jury would disagree but the language is the language of deciding he is guilty.
as a legal expert polly can you explain that ‘fetishes’ clause in the law?
Thanks.
No, just that he is using untrue prejudices and nasty stereotypes of feminists to undermine her credibility as a lawyer. And id rather be a radical feminist who chooses not to perpetuate rape myths than a lawyer who thinks he can re define what rape is
It may well be that Miss A and Miss B’s accounts would be deemed untruthful by a court. But unless they get to court, how would we ever know?
Maggie, apologies I thought that he accused her of being man hating, I dont think being a radical feminist means you hate men!
as a legal expert polly can you explain that ‘fetishes’ clause in the law
I just did QRG – 5 comments up. Nor am I a legal expert. I have a law degree/postgraduate diploma in legal practice. Doesn’t make me expert, though apparently that would be no obstacle to becoming a QC.
Statutory interpretation, (the interpretation of a particular word) is a subject within law in itself QRG. When a bill becomes law, such as the sexual offences act 2003, it will frequently have accompanying guidelines. However if a particular aspect (such as the definition of fetish) is subject to dispute, it is further defined through case law. Hence the definition of ‘reasonable belief’ was altered by cases such as Morgan, prior to the 2003 act.
Nowt to do with this though.
“I have read the ‘allegations’ and the various accounts and some of what is described sounds like some sexual encounters I have had. I do not consider that I was raped in those encounters. But I think others would.”
Your point being QRG? Many people have had sexual encounters along the lines alleged. Some think it was rape, some don’t and some are unsure. Polly is right it is up to a jury to decide after weighing up all the evidence.
This suggests to me that ‘rape’ is a very complex issue. And consent is something that doesn’t just get switched on and off like a light.
No it doesn’t suggest that ‘rape’ is a very complex issue – it suggests that you think it’s a complex issue. In law it is not. Consent is either yes or no. It doesn’t matter what YOU think. If YOU want to change the law surrounding rape then become a politician.
“And when you take into account ‘fetishes’-I do not know what that phrase in the law means- it gets even more complex.”
This is your opinion and has no validation in a court of law. Or discussing points of law.
‘altered’ perhaps the wrong word there, but can’t think of a better one.
Whether or not rape is a complex issue is 100% beside the point. Geoffrey Robertson QC is saying that Assange is accused of something that – even if all the allegations against him are true – would not be a crime in England and Wales.
As Clare Montgomery QC pointed out, this is simply not the case.
I understand Sianuska. 😉
This reminds me of an argument I had with my neighbour about bins. (He’d nicked my bin and put it in his back yard). He threatened to sue me for invading his privacy. I pointed out he was talking bollocks, and I knew because I had a law degree. He countered with the fact that he had a business studies degree!
Also being a rape apologist is surely worse than simply being man/woman hating?
Thanks for the fetish thing Polly.
But I don’t think it is simple. what if you have a fetish for ‘non-consent’ as many people do? How do you deal with that? I know people in S and M who have had experiences they did not in any way expect to happen. The person overpowered them, took them by surprise. Legally this is not consent it is rape.
Polly- as you say, having legal qualifications doesnt make you right. Look at Geoffrey QC he has more qualifications than you.
My knowledge of gendered discourse is relevant because we are in a discourse here.
Except it does matter what I think Maggie. As a person and a woman, by not going to court when I had sexual encounters that some courts would consider rape, I made a stance about ‘consent’ and I affected the legal landscape. If every woman who had my experiences called ‘rape’ I think the law would change. It wouldnt be able to deal with the volume of cases for a start.
People have agency. Even ‘victims’.
The law is clear QRG. Whether or not you think the law is correct is a different matter.
But is the defendant’s fetishes, or lack of them, that is at issue. Not the alleged victim.
And again, nothing to do with an extradition hearing.
I think the law is confused. Some laws are.
Laws on e.g. what constitutes illegal pornography are also confused.
As are domestic violence laws.
Arguing as a feminist that the law is clear when it comes to sex and gender is frankly ridiculous.
It is an interesting point you make QRL with regard to fetish.
As is the fact that rape of a child under the age of 13 is classed exactly the same way as rape above that age minus the consent of course because consent cannot be deemed to have been given or asked for when it involves children. Perhaps all rape should be brought in line with the law surrounding children. Remove consent from the equation.
Polly ‘Also being a rape apologist is surely worse than simply being man/woman hating?’
I don’t think so.
Geoffrey Robertson QC has different qualifications from me. He is a barrister, I took solicitor’s exams. Being a QC is not a qualification – it means you are appointed as a Queen’s Counsel. I’m not a qualified solicitor because I didn’t do articles (work as a trainee solicitor for 2 years). Solicitors can apply to become QCs though. Robertson undoubtedly has more experience of practising law than me.
Arguing as a feminist that the law is clear when it comes to sex and gender is frankly ridiculous.
I’m arguing as a law graduate. Robertson is wrong on the law. Or more likely he’s trying to muddy the waters.
Polly ‘Also being a rape apologist is surely worse than simply being man/woman hating?’
I don’t think so.
So are you saying QRG, that advocating/defending rape is no worse than merely hating someone and not doing anything as a result of that hatred?
No it doesn’t, not unless you presuppose that miss B is telling the truth. For Assange to be found guilty the jury would first have to decide that they believe Miss B’s version of events.
‘even victims have agency’
yes – exactly. and from where i’m sitting it sounds like robertson is trying to take away her agency by deciding for her how he believes she should feel about what she says happened to her. He is saying that what is being alleged sounds like ‘normal sex’ to him, ‘the missionary position’ the ‘ebb and flow’ so therefore she shouldn’t have a problem with it because he has decided it so.
He is denying her her agency, her voice and her experience.
Anyway, that’s all from me today. i don’t have any post grad qualifications to bring the to the table! 😉
our postgrad qualifications are proving to be a bit useless here, sianushka!
I think the tax payers should be worried about their investment…
Cath-that’s the point with rape. if a conviction is not achieved it suggests the victim is lying. Feminists argue that the way the law is practiced means women are treated as ‘liars’. But if a law is based this way on proving one or other party is a liar it all gets messy as far as I can see.
If someone is burgled and there is no conviction, there is not the added assumption that the person ‘lied’ about being burgled. They just don’t find enough evidence to prosecute.
This case means either Assange or the accusers have to be ‘lying’ and I don’t like how that is framed.
Cath-that’s the point with rape. if a conviction is not achieved it suggests the victim is lying. Feminists argue that the way the law is practiced means women are treated as ‘liars’. But if a law is based this way on proving one or other party is a liar it all gets messy as far as I can see.
If someone is burgled and there is no conviction, there is not the added assumption that the person ‘lied’ about being burgled. They just don’t find enough evidence to prosecute.
Really? What if someone says they’re burgled and is then found to have perpetrated an insurance fraud? There isn’t an assumption that people lie about being burgled by the police, but I can tell you that that’s because all the police do is turn up and give you a crime number in most cases. They don’t make any real attempt to investigate – when I was burgled I had to take a day off work to wait in for the forensics officer to come round and check for fingerprints on the windowsill, by which time it was all a bit pointless as it had rained. It took hours for someone to come round at all.
But if I had then made an insurance claim, (I didn’t, what was stolen was of little value) I would have been treated with suspicion by a claims investigator. And if I HAD lied to make a false insurance claim, I could be prosecuted.
If someone is found not guilty of rape, then the accuser is NOT assumed to have lied. The case against the defendant isn’t proved – it is a completely different thing. That is because the standard of criminal proof is ‘beyond a reasonable doubt’. So if a jury thinks there IS reasonable doubt that a person committed a crime, they will acquit them. But every non conviction does not then result in a trial of the alleged victim for perjury.
The point is that the defence in a rape case is usually that the alleged victim consented. Since there usually aren’t any witnesses to the actual rape, the case hinges, essentially, on who the jury believes.
If a burglary suspect turned round in court and said his/her mate had asked him/her to break into their house and nick the telly and a playstation and a laptop and some jewellery so they could claim on the insurance, then it would be a question of whether or not the alleged vctim was lying. But that isn’t usually the defence. And it’s not usually the defence because burglars hardly ever get caught in the first place.
but the law makes people guilty before they are tried. if you say miss B’s account would be ‘rape’ that is saying miss B was raped, by the man who had sex with her. This makes him guilty before a trial.
No it doesn’t, not unless you presuppose that miss B is telling the truth. For Assange to be found guilty the jury would first have to decide that they believe Miss B’s version of events.
Presactly Cath.
Assange is – for the nine zillion and oneth time – not on trial for rape in this hearing. It is an extradition hearing. Geoffrey Robertson is saying that what Assange is ALLEGED (note that) to have done would not be a crime in England and Wales if the alleged events were proved to have actually happened. He is talking bollocks.
If you say that breaking a window in someone’s house and stealing their CD’s is burglary, that doesn’t mean Joe Bloggs is guilty of that burglary. You need to prove that he did it, and that he intended to do it.
Can I ask how you suggest rape is defined QRG? Or do you think we should get rid of the whole concept?
Good question Polly. I think I’d rather be more like Canada where they just have degrees of ‘sexual assault’ rather than ‘rape’.
I don’t think the term rape is that helpful. It certainly doesn’t reduce the amount of gendered violence, by having that term.
So why people are so attached to it I am not sure.
But how would you prove sexual assault? It still requires lack of consent. Even in canada.
http://www.sacc.to/sya/crime/law.htm
You’re getting hung up on the word rape, it’s not the only sexual offence, but they all require lack of consent.
The basic issue is still the same. So?
Correction – not all sexual offences require lack of consent. Obviously it is impossible in some cases (necrophilia, bestiality), and irrelevant in others (child sex abuse). But canadian law still requires lack of consent for many of it’s sexual offences.
its, not it’s.
How do you suggest sexual assault is defined QRG. Without using ‘consent’?
I’m not attached to the word ‘rape’ personally. Why do you assume I am?
Or anyone else is?
oh polly you are making me smile now.
why do I assume you, or any other feminist is attached to the word rape?
Because you go on about it all the time.
Without ‘rape’ gender violence becomes a lot less dramatic and sensational.
without ‘rape’ there is no ‘rape culture’ there is no Melissa McEwan’s writings, as influenced by Germaine Greer and Andrea Dworkin’s.
Without ‘rape’ there are no ‘rape victims’ or ‘rape survivors’.
I am happy to do away with all those things. I don’t know if feminists are though.
“without ‘rape’ there is no ‘rape culture’ there is no Melissa McEwan’s writings, as influenced by Germaine Greer and Andrea Dworkin’s.”
Gotcha! It was only a matter of time coupled with quiet discourse to reveal what your agenda is all about.
I don’t care what you are. You have an agenda. And it’s anti feminist. Be of now doubt.
http: graunwatch.wordpress.com
I do have an agenda Maggie and it is ‘anti-feminist’ in that it is anti the feminism that has become dominant in the last 30-40 years or so.
You haven’t revealed anything I do not admit to be true.
But where can I talk about my concerns about how feminism conceptualises gender violence, except for where feminism is?
The wall.
You know like that film where the woman talked to the wall in her kitchen and then went off to Greece to get fucked by a greek guy and found herself in all.
It is like talking to a brick wall maggie you’re not wrong.
Shirley Valentine.
LOL yes Shirley Valentine
But where can I talk about my concerns about how feminism conceptualises gender violence, except for where feminism is?
An MRA forum? I’m sure they’d welcome you with open arms…
Your blog?
Comment is free? (discuss at length whether it is indistinguishable from an MRA forum)
Anywhere else on the internet where sexual offences are the topic of discussion?
And now a question for you QRG.
We aren’t ever going to agree (clearly) so what are you getting out of your continued presence on a thread on a blog you don’t agree with?
<emwhy do I assume you, or any other feminist is attached to the word rape?
Because you go on about it all the time.
Without ‘rape’ gender violence becomes a lot less dramatic and sensational.
without ‘rape’ there is no ‘rape culture’ there is no Melissa McEwan’s writings, as influenced by Germaine Greer and Andrea Dworkin’s.
Without ‘rape’ there are no ‘rape victims’ or ‘rape survivors’.
No there is sexual violence culture, sexual violence victims, sexual violence survivors etc. I don’t give a toss what something is called, if a disproportionate proportion of those experiencing it are FEMALE, it is a subject for feminism.
You’re going to have to do better than that.
Now your proposals for a law on sexual violence that DOESN’T include the concept of consent?
Also I am not a fan of Melissa McEwen. This is not Melissa McEwen’s blog. Take your argument to Melissa McEwen’s blog if you’ve got an argument with Melissa McEwen.
The sexual abuse of small boys and often small girls, is not, technically rape, it is sexual assault. It is still regarded culturally as a horrific crime.
Try again QRG. Have you actually got your PhD yet?
(should have said) is OFTEN not technically rape.
None of these people were accused of rape. Are you saying there is not societal horror at their crimes?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article6857687.ece
I go on about the bins all the time QRG. I go on about the government all the time. This does not mean I am necessarily “attached” to either waste disposal services or Cleggeron.
But FWIW, I don’t go on about rape culture all the time, care to prove otherwise. That’s me, not Melissa McEwen.
I have tried to discuss rape culture at Melissa’s blog but she refuses to publish my comments. You Polly are suggesting I leave this blog too and don’t discuss rape or rape culture with you either.
As for cif, the articles about rape tend to be by feminists. That there is critique of their views ‘below the line’ is a good thing I believe. I do go on there to discuss issues and yes, many of the commenters are more accomodating than many feminists to my contributions.
If you think feminists should be left to talk to each other and not to those who disagree with them that is a position.
I think it is a really rubbish one though.
a)it’s not my blog
b)I am not Melissa McEwen, nor is Cath Elliott, Melissa McEwen. It is therefore pointless arguing about something Melissa McEwen said with either of us, cos we’re not Melissa McEwen. Best to argue with points we’ve actually made. I have made some, but you’ve not responded to any of my questions.
c)I haven’t suggested you leave. I’ve asked what you’re achieiving by your presence.
d)Your ‘arguments’ appear to be as follows
1- all feminists are obsessed by/attached to the word “rape” because Melissa McEwen talks about rape culture and calls herself a feminist.
2-If we got rid of the word rape, this would somehow alter the judicial system, although you are unable to explain HOW this would come about.
3-The canadian judicial system does not use the word ‘rape’ and therefore you don’t have to prove consent. Except – on noes – the canadian legal system DOES have the concept of consent, and I just provided you with a link in REALLY SIMPLE LANGUAGE that explained that.
Now you can talk post modern nonsense until the cows come home, but it is kind of boring. If you have a GENUINE point to make about how you think rape law could be reformed, please make it. If you are just spouting ill informed gobshite about canadian sexual assault law however, (which you clearly know even less about than me, and MY knowledge was gained through google today) may I recommend you may find an opening with Geoffrey Roberston QC?
We aren’t ever going to agree (clearly) so what are you getting out of your continued presence on a thread on a blog you don’t agree with?
It’s a valid question, care to answer it?
You know, give me your grand scheme for reforming sexual assault/rape law. In detail. I’m waiting.
I will write a post on it polly. I hope you enjoy the wait.
‘Ohhh Helena. Why? Just why?’ My answer is because Helena Kennedy has finally shown her true colours – namely she is another pseudo feminist who just wants to gain male approval. I’ve had reservations about Helena Kennedy for some time and now she’s finally shown she has no regard whatsoever for women’s rights but instead is just seeking male approval.
Well you’ve got that Helena Kennedy but much good it will do you because you’ll be thrown under the bus when your usefulness to male supremacy has run its course. Helena Kennedy – another fake feminist.
‘The argument that Assange used the weight of his body to pin her down “describes what is usually termed the missionary position,” he said.” Exactly Geoffrey Robinson because normal male heterosexuality is one wherein men commonly use physical violence in order to penetrate an unwilling woman and then claim “but I’m not a rapist!’ Which is why distinguishing between rape and normal male heterosexual entitlement is so difficult because our male supremacist society condones and promotes the lie that men are entitled to use coercion and physical aggression against women.
Catherine A. MacKinnon wrote about the difficulties male supremacist society has in distinguishing male sexual violence against women from supposedly normal male sexual entitlement to women. That’s why women are viewed to be always in a state of ‘consent’ 24/7 unless and if they are able to provide independent male witnesses who can say yes they witnessed the male defendant raping the woman, otherwise the woman consented to whatever the man demanded. That’s why we live in a rape culture – because male supremacist system believes male sexual aggression against women is never violence just normal male sexual expression and entitlement.
I won’t be reading it QRG. Come on – shit or get off the pot, HERE. You’ve put a number of comments on here that amount to nothing but ‘feminism is bad’, ‘all feminists are attached to the word rape because Melissa McEwen is and she calls herself a feminist’ ‘Rape law should be reformed in some way, but I don’t know why or how, because frankly I don’t have a basic comprehension of the subject, ‘ And – “I have got/am doing (not sure which) a PhD in gender studies’.
Whereas I’ve put a lot of questions to you, none of which you’ve responded to. I am forced to conclude this is because you can’t.
Hope you use google before writing your post!
Robertson’s argument that because a sexual act takes place in ‘the missionary position’ that it must therefore be ‘normal sex’ and not rape is one of the most bizarre things I’ve heard for some time. By that argument NOTHING is rape, because it all resembles ‘Normal sex’.
But as I’ve said quite a few times by now, Robertson’s whole argument is bizarre anyway. He appears not to be arguing that Assange is accused of something which is not a crime in this country (the argument he should have been putting), but to be staging (as I’ve also said) a kangaroo court, “let’s have the trial right here’.
Anyway, it will be interesting to see the outcome.
BTW, I don’t buy FOR ONE MINUTE the idea that this is all a ploy to get Assange to Sweden so he can be extradited to the USA and executed. Doh! We already have an extradition treaty with the USA people -see the extraordinary case of Gary McKinnon – and no one can accuse our government of being hostile to the USA. Also if the Yanks really want rid of Assange (I am beginning to see their point, I’m bored shitless of him), wouldn’t there be more convenient ways to do it? A car crash or something? I thought they were meant to have brilliant and evil intelligence services.
http://quietgirlriot.wordpress.com/2010/11/17/rape-culture/
http://quietgirlriot.wordpress.com/2010/05/23/the-opposite-of-rape/
http://quietgirlriot.wordpress.com/2010/06/12/further-adventures-in-rape-culture/
http://quietgirlriot.wordpress.com/2011/02/04/rapevictim/
http://quietgirlriot.wordpress.com/2011/01/23/challenging-rape-myths/
here is some of my writing on rape, polly.
You have told me you won’t read it. That is up to you.
I only mentioned my PhD which I finished ages ago, as you mentioned your Law qualifications. that was petty of both of us. Some of the brightest people I know never went to uni.
I am leaving it there.
But if you read my work feel free to comment on it on my blog.
I will do some more research and writing on this subject that is very important to me.
Robertson’s argument that because a sexual act takes place in ‘the missionary position’ that it must therefore be ‘normal sex’ and not rape is one of the most bizarre things I’ve heard for some time. By that argument NOTHING is rape, because it all resembles ‘Normal sex’.
YES! Absolutely.
On an offensive par with Robertson’s views, are QRG’s anti-feminist pomo spamming on this thread. The boyz at CiF will love you, go there!
Polly, i agree. Either Assange is a total fantasist re extradition to the states or Sweden has decided to join in the UK with their dodgy attitude to not extraditing people to countries with the death penalty UNLESS it’s the good ole USA.
he should go to Sweden, stand trial and then he can give his side of the story,as he says he has been denied the chance to do, despite the fact that he has been asked to give it a fair few times now.
and feminists going on about rape all the time? well, thank fuck they do. if they hadn’t, we wouldn’t have any rape crisis centres, rape would still be legal in marriage and we wouldn’t have made the progress we have made in getting rape taken seriously as a crime.
however, there is still a long long way to go. and that is why feminists will continue to talk about rape. until 100% of rapes are reported and the conviction rate actually matches the number of crimes committed, and there is a SARC and rape crisis centre in every city, and an MSP can’t get away with making comments about a woman being raped ‘putting herself in a vulnerable position’ and maybe ‘being a prostitute’ then we need can’t stop talking about rape. and until a high profile rape case comes along like this on and the press uses it as an excuse to write ‘she’s lying’ stories and the daily mail stops prints ‘she’s lying’ stories every day, and until we aren’t in a situation where rape is a weapon of war, then feminists must continue to talk about rape because it’s happening (every 6 minutes in the UK according to the BCS) and it needs to stop.
or should we just shut up about it and let is carry on and do nothing to help prevent and expose sexual violence in all its forms?
hmm, have notice mutiple typos in that long paragraph. sorry about that. basically, i’m saying that feminists need to keep talking about rape until it stops/we see real justice for rape victims/we eliminate rape myths
I dont know sianushka I have been told to go somewhere else.
I think maybe I should leave you all to it. You obviously know much better than me about rape and what to do about it.
But I will keep on fighting for a change to how we perceive rape and gender violence according to my own perspective.
Bye.
awwww diddums QRG.
At least you have you pomo ideas of feminism to keep you warm.
Too right I do. Vive Foucault.
At least you outed yourself as an idiot. Saves me the bother (but, reading your comments on this thread would lead most to come to the same conclusion).
Why aren’t you off in your little pomo space, discussing with your idiot pomo friends about “awww rape, it’s so hard to define” crap?
You are young, you know nothing more than living in a rape culture, where rape has become indistinguishable from sex, thanks largely to ‘sex positive feminism’ (which is also a stinking turd, along with pomo).
You said above that similar scenarios had happened to you. Guess what? Unless you told the guy beforehand you were into those scenarios, he was probably a rapist. Mind reading has nothing to do with consensual sexual acts, and for a male to instigate ‘mock rape’ scenarios (or ‘rough sex’) without a clear understanding that you liked that sort of thing, or without clear ongoing signals from you that you liked what he was doing and to continue doing the same, he raped you.
Consent to ‘sex’ is not consent to an absolute free-for-all, whereby he (or you) can do absolutely anything to each other. What if one person was into burning the other with a cigarette? Is that also to be considered ‘normal sex’? Or, what if you rammed a buttplug up his ass without asking him first if he likes that, or he did that to you without asking? What if the dude decided strangling you to the point of unconsciousness was a turn on for him, and did not bother to ask you? Many men these days will try and force themselves anally into their female partner without asking. Unless BOTH parties are clearly consenting to all of this sort of stuff, then it is either rape or sexual assault, depending what acts were performed and to whom.
Time for you to stop reading shit like foucault, and read more informative texts like I never called it rape by Robin Warshaw.
how do you know I am young?
you are getting carried away Fab Libber. Your rape fantasies may turn you on but they don’t do anything for me.
QRG: “but the law makes people guilty before they are tried. if you say miss B’s account would be ‘rape’ that is saying miss B was raped, by the man who had sex with her. This makes him guilty before a trial.”
But if we say her account is not an account of rape (or of other form of nonconsensual sexual activity), then there is no crime to try. This is what is so ridiculous about Robertson’s statements; he disappears the very fact that a crime has been alleged, he disappears the fact that the complainants’ have made allegations that Assange acted in ways that are criminal under the law. Robertson IS literally denying that there are any allegations. Which is beyond bizarre.
The trial is the process of deciding if the accounts of the complainants (who are also witnesses to the crime) are more credible than the account of the defendant.
(I am not a lawyer nor have I studied law in any capacity).
QRG: “but the law makes people guilty before they are tried. if you say miss B’s account would be ‘rape’ that is saying miss B was raped, by the man who had sex with her. This makes him guilty before a trial.”
Oh dearie, dearie me.
This is the situation. Miss B (or Miss A, or Mr X) says person Y had sex with them without their consent, or without reasonably believing that they consented.
THIS is the legal definition of rape. Sex (or at least certain acts of penetration) without consent or a reasonable belief in consent.
Now whether or not person X ACTUALLY committed rape, is a matter of FACT for the JURY to decide. This has been explained to you SEVERAL TIMES QRG.
It may be that they decide Miss A, Miss B or Mr X’s account is not truthful. They may decide that person Y had a reasonable belief that A, B or X consented.
Now QRG, you have claimed that you absolutely NEED to be on this blog to argue with feminists. So I’m saying – put your money where your mouth is. Argue with us HERE and tell us what your solution is. Not on your blog. HERE. That is not ‘telling you to go somewhere else’, it is asking YOU to do what YOU yourself said you are here to do. Shit or get off the pot! HERE, not giving links to your blog, if I wanted to read your blog I would do. I don’t. I am commenting on this blog and you say you have something vital to say and so you HAVE to be here. Well say it then. Cut the passive aggressive bullshit and say it.
I am now reduced to quoting Steely Dan:
You been tellin’ me you’re a genius
Since you were seventeen
In all the time I’ve known you
I still don’t know what you mean
The weekend at the college
Didn’t turn out like you planned
The things that pass for knowledge
I can’t understand
You know, stop slinging mud about ‘rape fantasies’ and lets have your arguments. Here. Now. Or the big mean feminists will conclude in our big mean way, you’ve got no responses!
I’ve posed you loads of questions QRG and you have not responded to a single one. I’m beginning to feel like Jeremy Paxman talking to Michael Howard. Cath hasn’t banned you, here’s your golden opportunity. Go for it!
QRG
Except that you don’t actually believe that: you think that you and some tossy French philosopher know best. To you, a discussion about rape and sexual violence is simply an opportunity for you to post yet more pretentious post-structuralist (or is it post-modern? Who the fuck knows or cares?) shite.
Meanwhile, I’m at a Rape Crisis Conference with women who have been working with rape victims/survivors (and I make absolutely no apology for using terms that you find challenging) for 30 years or more. Women who have dedicated their lives to campaigning against rape and sexual violence, and yes, women who know much much more than you and your beloved Foucault about rape and what to do about it.
Rape isn’t some fucking game for people like you to intellectualise over; it’s not some esoteric philosophical problem designed to keep you and your PhD touting friends up all night pondering. If you want to understand it better, go and volunteer at a Rape Crisis Centre, go and talk to women who have been raped and who know first hand what impact it has had on their lives. Women who didn’t get their knowledge (or lack of it) from academic texts and from sitting through endless sodding lectures, but women who live in the real world.
My questions to QRG.
1.What are your suggestions for reforming rape/sexual assault law in the UK?
2.In particular how do you suggest we have a law of rape/sexual assault that does not utilise the concept of ‘consent’?
3.Why did you cite canadian sexual assault law as an example of the ideal system, when it clearly does utilise the concept of ‘consent’.
4.What evidence do you have that I or Cath Elliott, or anyone else COMMENTING ON THIS THREAD, is ‘attached’ to the word ‘rape’?
5.What evidence do you have that the use of the word ‘rape’ lowers convictions for sexual offences?
What Cath said.
Personally I do think there’s an argument to be made for not having a distinct offence of ‘rape’, but simply having degrees of sexual assault. Unfortunately ‘rape’ is a culturally loaded word – and it is culturally loaded with concepts of ‘dishonour’, ‘loss of virtue’ etc, which I think CAN affect the way juries react when asked to try a case of rape. Also other sexual assaults can be equally traumatic, and in a way the concept of a ‘worse’ offence of rape, can prevent them being taken seriously.
Pity it was left to me to make that argument eh QRG? Since you had ample opportunity and failed to do so.
I first heard Helena Kennedy discuss that idea by the way.
FACT: Postmodernism rots the brain and renders you incapable of any sort of radical analysis.
That is what it was designed to do.
To be fair ARF, it might not be JUST the postmodernism with QRG. Since I’ve imbibed the stuff and survived.
Indeed Polly, but from a feminist perspective pomo is part of the concentrated back-lash against feminism. I have studied Foucault, et al and whereby it may give the grey matter a work out it mostly serves to study fluff in ones navel, whilst flinging women under the bus (within a feminist analysis, that is.)
John Pilger from New Statesman was on Australian television last night (Q and A). This is what John Pilger said:
” What Julian Assange did is not illegal in the UK or Australia. It is not rape. People are wrong to say it is rape.”
It made me want to smash the television. It is utter bullshit. It is quite clear that when a woman doesn’t want to have sex with you don’t force the issue. If you do it is rape.
I’ve been married 17 years and never once have I had sex with my wife without her consent. There is no need to force anything. And there has been long periods (over a year) when my wife has been unable to have sex (after children). It is better to be frustrated and unsatisfied than it is to abuse somebody in this disgusting manner.
Assange, Pilger and Robertson are all Australian and seemingly mates. I am currently emailing these people and their employers and tellingly what I think of them. I hope more will follow my lead.
Cath writes:
When I first saw that Kennedy was on Assange’s defence team I consoled myself with the thought that at least if she was involved there’d be less chance of the defence resorting to victim blaming or any other rape apologist shite.
But from the start his defence team, who presumably met before hand to decide on strategy, declared that Assange’s prospects of a fair trial might be compromised by the possibility that Sweden’s chief prosecutor Marianne Ny is a “malicious radical feminist” with a “bias against men”.
The accusation was made by Brita Sundberg-Weitman, a former appeal court judge who having been flown in from Sweden by the defence might instead have rather aided the prosecution.
Sundberg-Weitman said of Sweden’s chief prosecutor, Marianne Ny, who is seeking the WikiLeaks founder’s extradition, she “has a rather biased view against men”….”I can’t understand her attitude here. It looks malicious,”.
Adding to Mr Assange’s woes was Geoffrey Robertson QC, who asked if it was her view that Ny wanted “to get [Assange] into her clutches and then arrest him no matter what?”
Quite a new age man is Mr Robertson.
But under cross-examination by Clare Montgomery QC, for the Swedish government, Sundberg-Weitman admitted she had no personal knowledge of the conduct of the prosecutor in the case, basing her views instead on what she had been told.
Really? Didn’t Mr Robertson ask her about this or did he think Clare Montgomery QC, being just a simple women wouldn’t challenge Sundberg-Weitman?
Sundberg-Weitman also acknowledged that while she believed the warrant to have been disproportionate, she agreed that a Swedish district court and the appeal court, considering evidence from Assange’s Swedish lawyer Björn Hurtig, had judged it both proportionate and legal.
Clare Montgomery QC, for the Swedish government, also said Swedish
prosecutor Ms Nye was authorised to issue the arrest warrant and said Mr
Assange was wanted for prosecution not merely interrogation.
What Julian Assange did is not illegal in the UK or Australia. It is not rape. People are wrong to say it is rape
Indeed Mr Divine. Pilger also needs to learn some law. Because the law is clear. Sexual intercourse without consent, or a reasonable belief in consent is rape in the UK. Whether or not Assange COMMITTED rape is something we do not know. Because he has not been tried. And the law says you are presumed innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
The remarks about Sweden’s chief prosecutor are nothing short of extraordinary.
Now I understand Mr Assange says he did not have sexual intercourse without consent, or a reasonable belief in consent. If this is the case, then he did not commit rape as defined under UK Law.
The point is WE DON’T KNOW. There hasn’t been a trial. And there will not be a trial in the UK, because he’s not been charged with rape in the UK.
The allegations against Assange:
Miss A said she was victim of “unlawful coercion” on the night of 14 August in Stockholm. The court heard Assange is accused of using his body weight to hold her down in a sexual manner.
2. She alleged Assange “sexually molested” Miss A by having sex with her without a condom when it was her “express wish” one should be used.
3. She claimed Assange “deliberately molested” Miss A on 18 August “in a way designed to violate her sexual integrity”.
4. She accused Assange of having sex with a second woman, Miss W, on 17 August without a condom while she was asleep at her Stockholm home.
http://liberalconspiracy.org/2010/12/08/more-light-finally-on-the-allegations-against-julian-assange/
Now as Clare Montgomery QC has pointed out: IF these allegations are true, and IF Assange did not have a reasonable belief that the women in question consented to the acts, (which would involve the need to prove prior consent when someone is asleep, since a sleeping person obviously cannot consent to sex, Doh!) that would indeed be rape in the UK. What is up to a court to investigate (or would be in the UK) is those two IFs.
Pilger is talking Bilge and should stop it immediately.
see QRG hasn’t popped back to give us the benefit of her wisdom yet. I really must start wearing gauntlets, simply so I can fling them down periodically.
Cath. we all live in the real world. How do you know what violence I have or not suffered in real life? You are a feminist. You care about women. You think the real world is quite tough on women.
I am a woman. I live in the real world. You do the maths.
Your attitude is quite astounding. Really. It’s like you only care about women who have the same perspective as you. There are millions of women in the world who suffer violence who are not feminists. And plenty who are into ‘po-mo’ shit.
I am glad I have never encountered people like you when I have needed help.
Polly – I am not having this debate anymore. I have sent you what I have written so far. You have told me you won’t read it. That is a stalemate.
If you want to write anything coherent on this subject I will read it.
Thanks
Bye.
QRG. Way to miss the point completely. If you had encountered me at any point in your life when you needed help I would have helped you, as I would do now or at any point in the future if, god forbid, you needed it. What I wouldn’t have done is sat around mentally masturbating over the philosophical conundrum your case presented.
Its ok thanks I got help elsewhere. You were talking to me as if I was someone who hadn’t suffered ‘in the real world’
You also have no clue what voluntary work I may or may not have done with vulnerable people.
I actually know quite a lot about Rape Crisis, Women’s AID and Crasac.
I don’t like any of them as organisations. From my experience of them. In the real world. I talk to lots of women who have suffered rape and domestic violence. And, shock horror, some men too.
Another problem with the term “rape” is its original meaning of “taken by force”- that something has been “taken” from the victim, so the crime has connotations of property and theft, rather than of bodily assault.
However, the word IS generally understood to mean forced sexual intercourse, and as such denotes a very specific kind of assault, and I think that it is worth keeping the distinct definitions of rape and other forms of assault by penetration, and other forms of sexual assault (came to this conclusion after reading the CPS link you posted above Polly, very useful reading, thanks). To explore further why one person forcing themselves inside the body of another should remain a distinct category of assault would I think require too much dwelling on the specifics of rape and would be a difficult read, I don’t wish to introduce that here and now.
However, when we talk about the problem of rape (the occurrence of rape and the lack of effective action about it), we risk invisibilising other kinds of sexual assault, some instances of which may be less violent, but are all still wrong, and a problem. Not to replace the word rape with the words sexual assault but to use the latter more often, to convey that there is a wider range of nonconsensual sexual behaviour. And it is also important to convey that there is a continuum of sexual assault and harrassment, that rape and other forms of sexual assault are not separate problems but derive from the same problematic ideas and attitudes held and acted on by the perpetrators, (even though not all perpetrators would go as far as to commit rape).
Did anyone watch panorama last night?
Apart from realising that Assange has the WORST hair in the world (consistently bad hair cut choices) i get so frustrated with all his celebrity cheerleaders.
Where were Bianca Jagger, Jemima Goldsmith and John Pilger when that woman was sent to jail for falsely retracting a rape allegation? Which celebs jumped to her aid, offering to stump up her bail. but when a priviliged guy who told the guardian that ‘afghani informers deserved to die’ gets a rape accusation, they’re pouring money and praise his way.
in the main, i agree with the aims of wikileaks. i think we did need to know about the human rights abuses in iraq etc. but not at the risk of informants lives.
and i am capable of recognising that i can agree with the leaking of those documents, and disagree with Assange himself (particularly his horror at his own papers and emails being leaked!)
In other news – it’s a real CIF/lib con commenter thing i think, talking about rape as a philosophical talking point. rather than something that happens.
How is the conference going Cath? I think we’re all concerned about what’s going to happen to our rape crisis centre in bristol, they had 3 years of funding but will it remain?
I’m sorry you have had bad experiences with Rape Crisis QRG. I guess people’s experiences do vary and it is awful that you didn’t get the support from them that you needed. However they do a lot of good work for a lot of people, and hopefully they will continue to get funding and grow.
Thanks Bitethehand for that wonderful post. I posted up thread about what was said in relation to another point. I did want to go into greater detail as per your post but didn’t have the time.
sianushka: yes it is amazing how celebrities are appearing on Assange’s side and saying, “Oh no he’s innocent”. It’s as if there is a network of them that come out and try to protect each other from the normal plebs. They seem to think they are above the law. The arrogance of them!
John Pilger, the New Statesman writer appeared on Australian TV yesterday and he made out that Julian Assange did nothing illegal. He said that what Julian did would not involve prosecution in the UK or Australia. He tried to suggest that the women were being ‘hounded’ into making their allegations by the Swedish authorities who wanted Assange in their country so that they could extradite him to the USA! Unbelievable. There’s less chance of him being extradited from Sweden as there is from the UK!
You’ve got to ask yourself why is Pilger prepared to lie like this? Just because he is a friend of Assange’s does he have the right to use the media, to lie, in order to protect him? I don’t think so.
There’s less chance of him being extradited from Sweden as there is from the UK!
Excellent point Mr Divine, the UK is far more chummy with the US than Sweden is.
To add insult to injury wrt Assange, he has been awarded by the Sydney Peace Foundation a “rare gold medal for peace with justice”.
In the estimation of the Sydney Peace Foundation, Australian WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange stands alongside the Dalai Lama and Nelson Mandela.
[…]
“Peace from our point of view is really about justice, fairness and the attainment of human rights,”
http://www.smh.com.au/technology/technology-news/julian-assange-awarded-sydney-peace-medal-20110202-1adeu.html
Shame that the SPF do not consider a woman’s right to bodily integrity and justice is covered in “human” rights. It is rather a strange choice to award him this honour, at a time when his personal conduct is under question. Hardly smacks of personal integrity. I agree with sianushka, that it seems a whole bunch of celebrities and uppercrust are falling all over themselves to protest his innocence. They doth protest a little too much.
[thanks to ‘chicky’ for the SPF link]
Where are the celebrity cheerleaders here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/patrick-butler-cuts-blog/2011/feb/15/council-backs-down-on-domestic-violence-cuts
to help protect women who are being raped and abused? why are they defending a suspected rapist and not women who are being attacked?
Oh right – abused women aren’t as rock n roll and press friendly as Assange.
Sick of it!
I actually know quite a lot about Rape Crisis, Women’s AID and Crasac.
I don’t like any of them as organisations. From my experience of them. In the real world. I talk to lots of women who have suffered rape and domestic violence. And, shock horror, some men too.
As a service user or volunteer? You half insinuated that you volunteered, but the latter part indicated a view of service user. If, as a volunteer, you carried on with the [quoting Cath] “sat around mentally masturbating over the philosophical conundrum”, then understandable that most of the volunteers at those organisations would not have indulged your pomo fantasy world either. As a service user, they do what they can to help as many women and children as they can, with extremely limited resources and funding. Many of us here volunteer for the first two organisations.
As for your “menz are victims of DV too!” stance, no one denies that. However, men (or boys) are more likely to be the victims of other MALES (not females), and over all, male victims make up the significantly smaller percentage of victims over all. Women and girls are by far the overwhelming number of victims (rape and DV). Even the Home Office recognise that, so don’t spout your “in the real world” crap. And you might also want to know that many DV shelters for males have closed down due to lack of demand. Oh dear. Don’t try and spout your inference that men are equally vulnerable and women are equally as violent crap, or that feminists do not recognise that there are male victims, either.
And, it is pretty easy to tell that you are fairly young (or extraordinarily immature) by your opinions and the way you present yourself. Equally, I am a crabby old woman, who is old enough to see through all the bullshit. I might have an uncontrollable urge to call you ‘deary’ at any minute. LOL
Here is another clue, calling yourself “girl” in your online ID pegs you as quite young, as well as having no real understanding of feminist politics – the term “girl” used for adult women is a way of “unempowering” them. It is a put-down. Yet, you use it with some pride. Lordy, you have a long way to go girl.
ps – if you really really want to use “girl” in your handle (to sound kool, hip and vibrant), particularly within feminist circles, then you use the spelling “grrrl”.
FAB Libber please feel free to call me deary anytime dear.
QRG – I’ve had knowledge of Women’s Aid, and of the women who seek their help. All those women are vulnerable people, traumatised initially through enduring years of violence and abuse against them, rape in marriage/partnership being one aspect. The work that Women’s Aid do through my observations (I went to some sessions with a friend who was in an abusive/rape marriage), helps restore the confidence of the women. The work they do is invaluable not only to the women but their children and their families. I have seen the results of this work with my own eyes. My friend is now on her own two feet, off benefits and working for herself. Granted not all women who seek the services of Women’s Aid achieve this but she acknowledges and will never forget (nor will I) the valuable contribution they gave to her.
FAB Libber please feel free to call me deary anytime dear.
Being the old fuddy duddy that I am, I might make a freudian slip and call you DREARY. Which about sums up my interest in your pomo bullshit.
Nice to see QRG quoting Quentin Crisp when trolling for readers to her blog! Stats down QRG?
If your presence on this thread is as VITAL as you claim it is, QRG, why won’t you address any of my points?
I’m forced to conclude it’s because you can’t. If you just wanted to say those things and you’d already written them on your blog, why the need to be on this thread at all?
It’s you who claimed you needed to be here, to debate with feminists.
So put your money where your mouth is, or you ain’t saying nothing.
What I write is entirely coherent (or else I wouldn’t have been able to pass a law degree and have a job that requires good written communication skills). If you can’t understand it, that tells us something about you QRG.
Your comprehension skills (or the lack of them) are demonstrated above.
Nuff said.
I have seen it suggested elsewhere BTW that QRG is a performance artist. If so she’s a pretty shit one.
but the law makes people guilty before they are tried. if you say miss B’s account would be ‘rape’ that is saying miss B was raped, by the man who had sex with her. This makes him guilty before a trial.
Classic, absolutely fucking classic.
But where can I talk about my concerns about how feminism conceptualises gender violence, except for where feminism is
Bit of waste of time talking about them on your blog then surely? Not much feminism there…
“But where can I talk about my concerns about how feminism conceptualises gender violence, except for where feminism is?
I’m a women’s libberationist what is this feminism you speak of?
Swedish extradition law:
Extradition may not be granted for military or political offences. Nor may extradition be granted if there is reason to fear that the person whose extradition is requested runs a risk – on account of his or her ethnic origins, membership of a particular social group or religious or political beliefs – of being subjected to persecution threatening his or her life or freedom, or is serious in some other respect.
http://www.sweden.gov.se/sb/d/2710/a/15435
UK Extradition Law:
Controversy surrounds the US-UK extradition treaty of 2003 which was implemented in this act. Considered by some to be one-sided[1] because it allows the US to extradite UK citizens and others for offences committed against US law, even though the alleged offence may have been committed in the UK by a person living and working in the UK (see for example the NatWest Three), and there being no reciprocal right; and issues about the level of proof required being less to extradite from the UK to the US rather than vice-versa[2].
Among other provisions Part 2 of the Act: Extradition to category 2 territories (non-European Arrest warrant territories) removed the requirement on the USA to provide prima facie evidence in extraditions from the UK, requiring instead only reasonable suspicion.[3] This was necessary to redress the previous imbalance against the USA under the 1870 Act, as the UK did not have to provide the more onerous prima facie evidence to extradite from the USA. The requirement for the UK is to show probable cause – and although not exactly the same as reasonable suspicion, they are more equal than the 1870 Act and are about as equal as can be, given the differences in the two legal systems and without violating the US Constitution[citation needed] .
There is also concern at the loss of entitlement of UK citizens to legal aid for maintaining an adequate defence to criminal charges once they are extradited to US jurisdiction where costs are largely met by the defendant’s private means. This has been a cause of controversy in cases where it has been perceived that the UK has suitable legislation for prosecuting offences domestically.
The manner of its implementation also caused concern because of alleged secrecy and minimal parliamentary scrutiny[2][4][5].
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extradition_Act_2003
Yep, it does sound much easier for the US to get their hands on someone in the UK. Maybe ASSange’s legal dreamteam will be successful in fighting the extradition to Sweden, then the Americans will swoop in and take him stateside. Coming to get him whilst he was asleep might be poetic justice?
He is an Australian citizen, and the aussies will not extradite if there is a death penality involved (the US don’t for treason do they?), then Oz is his best bet. He has already tried to appeal to the Australian Govt to help him out. I think they should absolutely refuse on the grounds of bad haircuts. And being a serial rapist.
Did any of you see the dating profile he made? He thinks western women are shit, he wants a nice subservient one – and is more than happy to impregnate them. I am not a court of law – I can call him a rapist sleezebag.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/wikileaks/8199545/WikiLeaks-Julian-Assanges-online-dating-profile-I-am-danger-achtung.html
And apparently he has four illegitimate offspring scattered about. Seems intent on making more.
Yea and John Pilger is his friend and is defending him. What does it say about Pilger?
I like the comment about getting him while he’s asleep.
This guy needs to stand trial , there’s no two ways about it.
Thanks for the info about extradition Polly. See what I mean about Pilger trying to make out that it is easier to extradite from Sweden, and that this is the underlying reason for the whole affair! Everytime Pilger writes on the New Statesmen I’m going to bring up what he said in his comments’ section. Anyone going to join me?
Polly: I’ve just heard Daniel Domscheit-Berg, an ex-Wikileak ‘founder/worker’ in an interview. He said that if Assange is extradited to Sweden then in order for the US to extradite him they would need permission from both Sweden and the UK.
Daniel also mentioned that Assange was threatening and aggressive if he didn’t get his way and likened his behaviour to a megalomanic.
Assange is not wikileaks. Everyone he has worked with in this country (eg the Guardian) seems to have disassociated themself from him because of his egotistical behaviour.
None of which means he’s a rapist of course, I think it’s really important that we keep stressing that. But by all accounts, he has an ego the size of Wales and is keen to depict himself as a noble outlaw on the run for that reason. I just don’t see why so many on what we could broadly call the left are falling for it.
He told visitors he was “directing a consuming, dangerous human rights project which is, as you might expect, male dominated
Lol, from the dating profile. Why would we expect it to be male dominated? Anyway did he mention he’s a ringer for John Inman? (Catchphrase “I’m free”)
None of which means he’s a rapist of course, I think it’s really important that we keep stressing that.
Why? There are already enough cheerleaders ready to defend him even with some compelling evidence that would indicate otherwise. I will not add to that number, I am not a court of law, and based on the descriptions of the events, they are very typical of acquaintance rape and sexual assault.
The fact that he penetrated one woman whilst sleeping is definitely rape. You yourself Polly argue that consent cannot be given in advance, and that a sleeping person cannot consent. Yes it might be her word against his, but so are most rape cases without signs of physical injury.
His behaviour in not using the condom on the sleeping woman, when she specifically and repeatedly asked him to all throughout the evening, is the sign of an abusive person. For her own reasons, and it could also have been that because she had never had condomless sex, she probably did not have any other form of birth control going (why would you, if you always insisted on sex with a condom?). One wonders how many of his illegitimate offspring were conceived this way.
More allegations of Assange’s philandering are made in the book, which claims he would regularly “boast about how many children he had fathered”, and preferred women “younger than 22”.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2011/feb/10/julian-assange-wikileaks-book-claims
If feminists are not going to take the victims’ word for it, who will? The (UK) legal system with the track record of only convicted less than 6%? I think not.
I’m not sure to what extent QRG represents pomo feminism, but I do know that the notion of reality being all language games and competing narratives directly informs the right wing PR machine on notions of climate change, evolution and gay rights. “Teach the controversy” comes directly out of pomo for instance.
Pomo seems to me to be idle word games that has produced nothing of value for anyone outside of PR. Also playing with definitions of rape has real world consequences witness the recent attempt to redefine rape to “forcible rape” in the US.
Anyway did he mention he’s a ringer for John Inman?
More like John Simm (The Master, Doctor Who). Has a the same megalomaniac personality to match.
http://uk.tv.ign.com/articles/824/824169p1.html
To be clear: I’m not saying that Assange isn’t a rapist, (or is a rapist the legal department added hastily). I’m saying being an egotistical eejit doesn’t mean you’re a rapist.
Certainly if he DID have sex with a sleeping woman you have to question how much he values responsiveness in a sexual partner. Even IF she signed in triplicate giving her consent beforehand.
I’m not sure to what extent QRG represents pomo feminism
Well she represents POMO but I gather she has completely disavowed feminism (If you can bear it, you may find the answers at her blog). To such an extent that she feels compelled to spend a great deal of her life on those feminist blogs she hasn’t yet been banned from. It’s a bit odd, like me spending my entire life on a football forum, or conservative home, but there you are.
Oh well actually if you want to spare yourself QRG’s blog, you can just go here…
http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2011/02/08/i-know-youre-smarter-than-me-clarisse-thorns-feminist-ideology/
I have done my homework, Q Grrl.
If you go to my blog and read the posts on feminism you will see that.
I was born into a family of feminists in the 1970s. I studied gender studies and got a phD in gender studies, as a feminist.
I have since rejected the dogma of feminism.
This is not due to lack of information, or the inability to grasp a concept.
I have read the books. I changed my mind.
Is that a crime these days too?
(in which thread QRG also whines extensively about Melissa McEwen. And no Melissa McEwen isn’t commenting on that thread either….)
QRG seems a bit obsessed with Ms McEwen.
And btw QRG (cos I know you’re reading obsessively everything that’s said about you) I doubt it’s mutual…
That’s enough about QRG ed….
Of course, in an ideal world, he’d be jailed for rape in Sweden, then after serving that prison term, extradited immediately to the States, who cn send him to Guantanamo for, well, a few hundred electric shocks to the testicles might be a good starter.
Then hang the bastard.
Back to Assange. We’ve had this one before…
http://totallylookslike.icanhascheezburger.com/2010/12/27/julian-assange-mr-humphries/
Polly:
A lucky break for feminism. The last time I came across pomo feminism it was Luce Irigaray saying e=mc2 was a sexist equation. Hopefully pomo can be kept out of areas that actually matter, where it has always ended up benefiting those with the least attachment to truth. Who most often turn out to be right wingers with an agenda.
Thanks for the link, interesting article and revealing comments.
I think they’re meant to be closing Guanatano down.
Really struggling not to make any “are you being served” related jokes now.
Guantanamo even.
Wow, some of you here seem to have never evolved further than the dark ages. First of all, if you do a little more research in what actually happened in Sweden, you’ll find that these two ‘ladies’ barely have an actual story regarding the rape-charges. Worse, most of their stories consist of lies and have changed quite a few times during the entire process, which you can also clearly see if you’re capable of reading the swedish language. Most arguments against Assange come from media that have either failed to properly translate from the swedish language, or made up some nonsense to garner attention (and viewers/readers/listeners).
Mark my words: All who now are saying he’s raped anyone, ever, during his lifetime, will be ashamed of having said that. The truth will come out.
By the way, what I think is the most cowardly side of the entire case is the fact that both women (the so-called accusers) refuse to publish anything worthwhile regarding the case. They refuse to show their faces in an interview, and they refuse to even deny or comment, regardless of if they’re guilty or not, it stinks. Oh sure, their ‘lawyers’ have to do the talking now? Give us a break.
Ally McRib
WTF?
I could write you a whole load of arguments as to why capital punishment, torture etc is wrong, no matter what the crime, but 1. I’m trying to write this comment on an iPhone and to be honest life’s too short for this fiddly shit, and 2. I suspect you’re just trolling and you’re not likely to read my painstakingly crafted response anyway.
As some of you may have realised, I’m not around much this week and I haven’t got time to be moderating this thread. So can I please just remind everyone that no matter what your personal views re Assange’s guilt or innocence, there are legal issues involved here, so you need to be careful what you say.
Hah! Even I’m impressed that I just managed to do the blockquote thing from my phone! 🙂
Well i just typed a long comment which I lost because I hadn’t filled in my name and e-mail, why oh why oh why does wordpress does that.
Anyway Julia:
Wow, some of you here seem to have never evolved further than the dark ages. First of all, if you do a little more research in what actually happened in Sweden, you’ll find that these two ‘ladies’ barely have an actual story regarding the rape-charges. Worse, most of their stories consist of lies and have changed quite a few times during the entire process, which you can also clearly see if you’re capable of reading the swedish language. Most arguments against Assange come from media that have either failed to properly translate from the swedish language, or made up some nonsense to garner attention (and viewers/readers/listeners).
Au contraire Julia, I have evolved enought to ask do you have any ACTUAL evidence to support this allegation? Otherwise I’m forced to conclude you’re just bullshitting. You don’t know the truth of what happened any more than anyone else does.
By the way, what I think is the most cowardly side of the entire case is the fact that both women (the so-called accusers) refuse to publish anything worthwhile regarding the case. They refuse to show their faces in an interview,
It’s a criminal case. I don’t know enough about Swedish Law to comment on the situation there, but if you behaved in that way in the UK you’d be committing CONTEMPT OF COURT. Furthermore I gather that they are entitled, in Sweden, to anonmyity (again I haven’t checked, I’m basing it on Swedish Law).
Either way, to echo what Cath said, the correct case for a criminal allegation to be decided is IN COURT. Not by Geoffrey Roberston QC, not by anyone on the internetz. And that includes YOU Julia.
Robertson, don’t know why I keep transposing that.
correct place, what the hell it’s 6.55
again I haven’t checked, I’m basing it on what I’ve read in the media).
Note to self, proofread what have written just woken up.
In an ideal world Assange would sink into deserved anonymity.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/dec/17/julian-assange-sweden
Are you saying that’s incorrect Julia? The guardian is, or rather was, one of Assange’s biggest supporters.
PS. Obviously I personally haven’t evolved since the dark ages cos a)I’m not that old and b)human beings as a species haven’t evolved significantly (if at all) since the dark ages, it only being a few hundred years. I also recommend finding out what the theory of evolution actually is Julia.
Julia i barely can be bothered to answer your comment but it is for the courts in Sweden to decide if the assange accusers are lying. Not you, not me, not the media, but the courts.
And why should they do interviews or name themselves? anonymity of victims is a legal thing, it is their legal right. plus, as polly says, they’d be in contempt of court. would you prefer all people going through court cases turned up on the one show or this morning to talk about it? or should we let the courts decide who is and is not guilty in these cases? i know what i would prefer.
IF assange had sex with a woman whilst she was asleep, then he did so without her consent and he is guilty. whether you don’t want to believe that the great wikileaks hero could do such a thing is immaterial.
And if he didn’t do it then he isn’t guilty. But making the decision based on media reports (which, by the way, have mainly supported assange – even the daily mail seemed happy to back him when it became apparent they could do a “women are liars” story) and the fact that YOU think the alleged victims should parade on TV is absolutely ludicrious. It isn’t for you, me or anyone here to decide, it is up to the Swedish courts.
women who call other women liars, with no evidence and no reason to make me really really cross. What about sisterhood?
Also, good point above made about trying to re-define rape and the way that is being used by the USA to change abortion law. All rape is forcible.
Julia, are you even female?
The ONLY time I have seen anyone put ‘ladies’ in scarequotes like that is from a man.
And I suppose you think that only ‘real rape’ is when a strange man leaps out of the bushes at a 16yo virgin on her way to bible studies…
Maybe Julia works for the Mail, and is feeling at a loss with no completely innocent, if somewhat eccentric, landlords to fit up.
@fab libber:/polly are you female? If so who are you? I’m a 50 year old male living in inland Australia living on five acres with a pool but I’m originally from Merseyside. I’m married with 4 kids. it’s interesting to know who you are talking to… and its friday night here in Oz.
Mr Divine, yes, Polly is female, as is Cath, as am I.
Beyond that, it is up to Polly to tell you more about herself. I find it strange that you ask.
Mr Divine. In accordance with the Radical Feminist Code of Conduct, which requires us to be Big Meanies to males, I issue you with a bit of basic radical feminist homework. Because we are Big Meanies.
I’m married with 4 kids.
Nice of you to be part of a family unit. Now, the million dollar question, which member of the family unit is completely invisible by your sentence?
Here are a few hints: You mention 4x child units (so, it’s not them). You mention yourself, and as an added bonus, your sexual orientation (within the context of the sentence). Now, who on earth could be missing from your tidy little family unit??? Gosh, that is a hard one, isn’t it?!
Before you write it off as being overly sensitive to a ‘common figure of speech’, when there is a trend for this sort of thing, it becomes a problem. Women, their work, their contributions, are invisibilised all the time. Times your little sentence by a million billion, and you have the scale of the problem. You might ‘mean well’, but you are inadvertently contributing to the problem.
Phew. My membership as a radical feminist has been secured until the next general meeting. Now, if I could only just work on that pesky sense of humour…
I’m a cow.
My female partner is also married .. is that the information that you wanted?
And Polly I assume that you’re a female cow? And where do you graze?
Actually ‘I’m married with 4 kids ‘ does include my wife as marriage involves two people. It’s implicit, although admittedly it is not implicit whether the person I’m married to is male or female. My ‘family’ also includes 2 cats, guinea pig, some female chooks, two funny female goats and about 22 sheep ( mainly female ..ewes). Now that info about my family unit is not implicit and therefore needs to be explicit!
So fab libber what explicit information can you provide especially with regards to your abode? Because I’m a long way from London I was thinking that it would be possible for someone else to have a dig at John Pilger in person .. you know shout at him when he’s in a TV interview, make a complete scene, that sort of thing? It could make mainstream news, and as a result you could get your arguments across to a larger audience. Are you up for that?
fab libber, you seem like a feisty being so why not put it to good use?
I am not your own personal gopher, so not running erands for you.
You missed the point, the point was to get you to think of how much you do take your wife for granted, and how she is invisibilised. And before you start in on the “but I tell her all the time…” stuff, that is still not good enough. She needs recognition outside of your family unit. I am not saying that you actually name her here, but acknowledging that she is a person on the family unit list would be a start.
And, the chances of you having a male partner? Very slight with four kids. It was an fair-bet assumption.
I am not looking for internet friends, so not really interested in chatting about houses, pools, chickens, or anything else. It is also not appropriate for you, a relative stranger to this blog, to get so off topic in such a manner. I know Cath, so she lets me get away with murder most of the time.
What you need to know about feminists, the real kind, is that we really don’t take any shit from males. We will not coo for your attention in any way.
I’ve acknowledged her in the family unit … I’m married … it’s implicit … if I’m married then there is someone else .. to be married involves somebody. It doesn’t sound like you understand the concept of implicit statements/acknowledgments? According to your logic I should have said, ‘I am married with four kids and a wife’. But this means I have included my wife twice on the list.. with an implicit acknowledgment and an explicit one. Why do I need to do this? I don’t.
‘the point was to get you to think of how much you do take your wife for granted, and how she is invisibilised’.
Taking someone for granted involves what exactly? Not explicitedly acknowledging her on text to a blog? My wife has a Masters in Politics, her thesis being on 20th century feminist thought. Trust me, she’d let me know if I’ve been ‘invisiblings’ her. My Masters is in Linguistics (my BA is in Politics). So I don’t need you to tell me I’m not acknowledging her when I say ” I’m married with four kids”.
‘It is also not appropriate for you, a relative stranger to this blog, to get so off topic in such a manner. ‘
Are you really telling me what is appropriate? Sounds very inappropriate to tell someone else what is and what is not appropriate .. don’t you think?
What you need to know about me, the real me, is I don’t take any shit from anyone who doesn’t understand implicit knowledge. I don’t coo for the attention of any thicko dipstick in any way.
PS So you’re not up to the Pilger challenge?
Hey and if you wanna find me I’m onthe New Statesman blog Medhi and Laurie and Pilger.. that’s if you’re up to it?
I graze a long way from London Mr D. And much as I think Pilger is being a tosspot over Assange, I’ve got my hands too full with anti cuts activism at the mo as well as a full time job and a social life to pursue him – not that I know where he is.
It also would seem to me however to be doing what I personally am deploring himself and Robertson doing which is prejuding any (potential) legal proceedings involving Assange. We really shouldn’t do it. Assange, no matter how unengaging and generally annoying he may (in my opinion) be, is as entitled as anyone else to be treated fairly by the legal system. Pilger and his mates are spewing gobshite, but believe me people better known and higher up the chattering classes/media food chain than me have already pointed that out.
Thanks for that Polly. It’s good to know that other people are aware of what Pilger is up to. Yes, you’re right it would be better not to create a scene until after Assange is tried. Its good to know that other people recognise what Pilger is up to.
Hey Fab Libber: sorry for calling you a thicko dipstick. I bet you weren’t expecting that response! I’m like a fisherman that sticks out the bait.
Where are you in England?
I was in a party in Leeds in about 1987 and I was going down the stairs. It was about 12/1/2 0 clock and I was heading home. Before I had talked to a couple of women upstairs, but their conversation made me wonder if I was right in my prediction. When I left the pub I declared to the people I was with, “Tonight I’m going to met the woman of my dreams”.
” Don’t go. Come in here. All the horny pieces are here.” saida women with blond hair.
I went in and starting talking to a woman about individual liberty. She gave me a beer and we talked. later she came round to mine for a smoke of hash in a glass pipe. She had just finished her degree and about 4 weeks later we hitched down to Morocco with half an ounce of Red Leb and the same glass pipe.
And then when she still insisted that poverty was relative I took her to India where she was sick.
I have learnt from her and she from me.
What about you Fab Lib .. who are you?
Or are you still horrified that I could give you shit so quickly? you started it.
I believe in the cuts
http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/laurie-penny/2011/02/cameron-society-social-real
OhHelenaihavetoomuchtosayformyself
You are seriously trolling and self promoting Divine.
That is why I will not entertain you further.
Oh yea as if you know me.
And what exactly am I promoting?
Fairy Liquid?
You haven’t done any entertaining.
There’s been no belly dancing by you.
Nay.
What’s wrong?
Made you look stupid.
Well let me tell you
I’m more stupid than
You will ever be.
PS The Pilger project is off!
Very mild for the time of year….
Good to see everyone played so nicely while I was away…..
😉
She started it, accusing me of not including my wife on my list of family members when quite clearly I implicitly did. And because I showed her up to be linguistically challenged she then fell back on the old faithful of a beaten warrior worm, ” You’re a troll and I don’t want to play with you anymore.’
Well I don’t want to play with the wicked witch of West Brom.
Not until she’s owned up that she was wrong.
I’m holding my breath.
Bullshit Divine, I don’t waste my time with anyone who proves themselves to be an idiot. Big difference.
You didn’t ‘win’ jackshit, I am not frightened of you, nor ‘linguistically challenged’ and whatever other baseless claims you make up. I just choose to ignore you.
You got two chances to prove you were not an idiot or sexist, you failed, I then ignore.
Do NOT address me again.
I am actually surprised that Cath has not banned you already.
I hope she will if you ignore my request. Radfems do not take kindly to males who cannot respect boundaries.
@To no one in particular.
I haven’t made any sexist comments. It is certainly true that I have made idiotic comments but I have conceded that they were idiotic. For instance, when Polly pointed out that it would not be a good idea to make a scene before the Assange trial I said she was right and I was mistaken.
You on the other hand haven’t admitted that you were wrong when you tried to suggest that my statement, “I am married with 4 kids” didn’t include my wife .. ‘who is missing from this description of your family unit .. who could it be’ you sarcastically wrote. Yet I proved to you that I did include her implicitly. Marriage involves two people .. she was included … so admit it. Why can’t you admit it?
It is you that needs to firstly admit that you were wrong in your semantic analysis of my statement, and secondly to apologise that you inferred that my statement meant I am ignoring her. It was you who started insulting me without any basis.
What’s this idea of setting boundaries ‘You can not address me” … it is my personal space. You mean I can’t respond to you criticising me? Is that what you are trying to say? And then you give a sly hint that if I do I should be banned.
‘I am actually surprised that Cath has not banned you already.
I hope she will if you ignore my request’
Is it your habit to threaten people when they counter your misrepresentations and insults?
@polly:
How about this for a slogan
WE SUPPORT THE CUTS
CUT THE ROYAL FAMILY