I pointed out in my roundup of 2010 that this oldie – Your husband has a right to expect regular sex – is still one of the most popular posts on this blog.
Well guess what? I logged into my dashboard earlier and discovered yet another comment (from yet another poor put-upon husband) waiting to be let through.
I’ve had several of these comments over the last 12 months, but for various reasons (mainly to do with not wanting to give the authors free reign to comment at will here) I’ve been loath to inflict them on the readers of this blog. Well, up until now that is.
Now I’ve decided that as the authors of these comments put so much thought and effort into crafting them, and as this is obviously an issue that people still want to discuss over a year after the original post went up, it would be mean of me not to publish them. And it would also be mean of me not to give readers here the opportunity to respond to them 🙂
So here we go. Let’s call this “Your husband has a right to expect regular sex part 2 – the view from the other (entitled) side.”
Thornton is confused and wants to know what marriage even means these days:
“I see a lot of different comments here, my question is what does marriage really mean legaly and scripturealy and by scripturealy I mean moraly?
Not how some one feels about it but what is written in black and white.
Problems in marriage range on a wide spectrum of difficulity, and there is not a itemized contract that people vow to follow legaly or moraly. It is really very general and vauge as to how we are expected to fullfill our vows to each other.But how we do it either leads to a great marriage or to a marriage fill with problems that end up in divorce.
So what do we know to be true?”
Meanwhile MRA fidelbogen has this to say/rant:
“Briefly, I would say that any partner who is forced to endure a sexless marriage (or nearly sexless), cannot be held amiss for straying into other pastures.
Any wife who practices “behavior modification” on her husband by using “nookie cookies” to coerce or reinforce desired behaviors, deserves no sympathy if he humiliates her spectacularly with infidelity. Although I would advise him to ‘no-fault divorce’ her as quickly as feasible.
Finally, as to the matter of marital rape. The problem here is the same as for rape in general, i.e. the difficulty of proof. Given the usual lack of witnesses, the majority of rape cases boil down to the classic “he said-she said” dilemma, which in my opinion (usually) warrants throwing the case out of court. But in the case of marital rape, the difficulties are compounded many-fold, considering that so-called “circumstantial” evidence is less apt to be warrantably circumstantial in the case of people who normally spend a lot of time alone together.
Regardless what you think about the permissibility of “marital rape” per se, it is hard to understand what positive good the laws against it could be reasonably said to accomplish.”
Mark appears to think I’m some kind of therapist:
“I’m a husband the low maintance type. I don’t require any sex from my wife or any one else, Sex is to much work wortless waste of time. Wife and I have been married 40 + years and we had sex may be 25 or 30 time in the last 40 years. I hate sex and hate to be touched by anyone except my doctor. If i’m touched it drives me crazy, I have to go wash myself.”
While Chris thinks that if he’s prepared to give up his Saturdays to help his wife compile recipes, the least she can do in return is fulfill his manly needs.
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‘What irks me is that this kind of shit only applies to male/female relationships. What if some guy wanted to play tennis with his friend, and his friend didn’t want to? Would you even have a situation where the guy would expect his friend to play tennis anyway? No. No one expects their friends to engage in activities that they don’t want to do. They certainly don’t write to advice columnists or take their friends to a therapist’s office and have a neutral third party tell the friend to just buck up and play tennis.’
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You have a point, but then it would be perfectly within my rights to go play tennis with somebody else. Bad analogy… do I really have the option to go somewhere else for sex? Not if I care about my marriage.
I see alot of the general attitude ‘it’s my body and I’ll do what I want with it’ in this thread. Yes, it is a woman’s right to control her own body, but it is my opinion that if that woman TRULY LOVED her husband she would make accommodations to make him happy. If she doesn’t feel comfortable with vaginal sex there are other ways to show that love AND fulfill his needs.
I would argue that those in the responses above who take the stance ‘It’s my body and and I don’t feel like it, he should just suck it up’ show very little regard for this person who is supposed to be their lifemate and I fear that those relationships are already too far gone. They’re basically saying, ‘I don’t give a sh!t what my spouse wants or needs, I’m going to do what I want’… is that a good basis for a loving and sharing relationship?
Marriage is about sacrifice and sharing. I sacrifice many things that I want to do for spending time with my wife and doing things that I definitely DO NOT want to do.
Do I want to help her with her Chemistry homework? NO.
Do I want to spend my whole Saturday helping her compile recipes for a project she’s working on? NO
Do I want to give up playing golf so we can afford her scrapbooking hobby? NOBut I do them all, because I love and respect my spouse… how is that ANY different from her making a sacrifice to help me with something that is important to me (and sex is VERY important to me).
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‘This kind of shit only comes up with male/female relationships b/c women aren’t seen as autonomous individuals whose wishes are just as important as a man’s.’
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No, the problem is that many women do not see sex as a need, and/or they use it to assert power over their spouse.
So what do you lot reckon? Is anyone out there persuaded yet that husbands really do have a right to expect regular sex?
No. Me neither.
Too Much To Say For Myself 
@ “I am a husband, the low maintenance kind”
ROTFLMAO!
I found these comments, really interesting as well as the original article you posted.
For me personally, I think that the concept of marriage is flawed in the first place because of our ability as human beings to just change our minds at will.
No matter, how much I love a person, I would not compromise my own needs for the sake of serving another person.
For example what if I changed from having an active sex drive to NEVER wanted to have sex ever again with anyone??
Would I sacrifice my own feelings for the sake of our relationship, or would he sacrifice his?
Or would we release our expectations of each other and just be free to do as we please, with no feelings of guilt?
It would be interesting to hear your answers to those questions, but in answering myself I recognized I obviously was not designed for marriage, well at least not ‘traditional’ anyhow.
Gonna stick my neck out here… I’ve seen posts on Mumsnet, many times, from women whose husbands/male partners are (for whatever reason) refusing/reluctant to have regular sex. Those women also feel hurt and angry, and their fellow (almost entirely female) posters often advise them that if their husbands aren’t willing to at least constructively address the problem (by talking about it, seeing a GP etc), then the woman would be justified in seeking sex elsewhere.
I know that in this reverse situation you’re not dealing with millennia of patriarchal overhang, so obviously there are some different connotations. But nevertheless, I think that many people – men and women – see regular sex (whatever that means) as a hugely important part of a committed relationship. Does this mean that anyone should ever pressure their partner into having sex? Absolutely not, without any qualifications. Does it mean that the person who *does* want sex might start to seek it elsewhere? I can see how that would happen.
I agree with other posters – if this is the case, and I’m happy to accept that some might wish it, then we also need to scrap the whole notion of “infidelity”.
If a wife doesn’t want sex at all, and if a husband goes elsewhere, why should he be divorcable for it? Why should he lose his kids, house, half his salary? Why should he be put through having to do that? Overall if asexuals form relationships with sexuals they are being slightly treacherous – to themselves as well as their partners. No-one should have to just ‘tie a knot in it’. (And that works both ways).
So, shall we lighten up and scrap infidelity as a reason for divorce? Is it hopelessly out of date with modern times?
If people expect a certain amount of sex per week or per day in their marriage, it would make sense to make that clear at the outset, and if both parties agree (regardless of gender) both parties should make an effort to make that happen. That doesn’t mean any party has a right to demand “Have sex with me right now; otherwise, you’re a terrible spouse.” Usually if one partner isn’t in the mood for sex, there’s a reason, and the other partner should look into how that reason can be addressed. Is my partner stressed? Would a massage help? Is my partner tired? Perhaps I can do my share of household chores then. Is there not enough foreplay or romance? Do we not have enough variety in our sexual intimacy? Maybe we should spruce it up a bit.
Again, all of that is true regardless of gender.
If one partner genuinely makes no effort to take the other’s sexual needs into consideration, then it makes sense for the other partner to want out of the marriage or to seek sex elsewhere, but it’s cheating only if you’re sneaky and deceitful about it. If you really feel justified in extra-marital sex, be aboveboard about it. Have an open marriage… or a divorce. Don’t cheat.
Scrapbooking is a more costly hobby than golf? You learn something new everyday.
Re the “he said, she said” “problem” of rape, I’ll just make the observation that there is no logical reason for someone who has enjoyed happy, mutually-fun sex to follow it up with getting caught up in a tiresome, unpleasant, difficult legal process just for shits’n’giggles.
ROTFLMAO, but disturbing that there are people that think that way.
It seems that many people seem completely confused as to what ‘needs’ actually are. Sex is NOT a ‘need’, it is a want or desire. Contrary to popular MRA belief, you will not die with out it, many celibate people prove that to be true. If humans can live without it, then it is NOT a need. Nor is it essential to happiness either, so physically and emotionally, sex scores zero-zero on the ‘needs’ front.
Nor is sex, particularly penetrative sex, an essential component of loving someone. If you believe that it is, then don’t have children – the cops arrest you for it. Sex is NOT an essential component in loving someone.
Finally, if you have sexual arousal and want orgasm, and your partner does not want sex with you, or any sexual contact, then USE YOUR OWN DAMN HANDS. Don’t expect your wife to be a masturbatory receptacle or masturbatory aid or device. She is a person, not a blow-up doll.
A lot of wives lose interest in sex with their husbands because he already treats her as a masturbatory device. That is NOT a partnership based on mutual love and respect. That is a domestic service and/or prostitution arrangement. It is only a matter of time before resentment sets in. Ask John Bobbitt.
Now, as for that scrapbook that costs more than golf – this I gotta see!
I found Mark’s post very sad.
FAB Libber
You sound like an asexual, and a happy wanker (no offence). I hope you only have relationships with other asexuals. You are setting yourself up for real problems if you partner with a sexual. Someone who does prioritise desire, and does feel more bonded to others if they share bodies. You will never really understand one another. They will see making love, you will see “receptacle”. They will long to see you get passionate, you will demand the right to be desireless and passive.
To solve the problem of asexuals and sexuals wasting one another’s lives, let’s scrap “infidelity” as a grounds for divorce, and just let anyone find their own happy balance with anyone they want to. Why put chains around people’s sexuality? If a partnership, as you suggest, is purely about sharing resources, to bring up children or not, then let’s keep sex out it altogether.
jo – Yes, I found Mark’s comment sad too.
I agree with what a lot of people are saying here, that sex can be an important part of a relationship, and for both parties, not just for men. If for whatever reason one person then ‘goes off’ sex and suddenly doesn’t want to do it any more, I don’t think anyone would fault their partner for trying to explore with them what it is that’s turned them off.
But I think those sorts of conversations, done as part of a loving, mutually respectful relationship, are a whole different thing from what some of these men, and the men in the previous post were talking about – which is this idea that once a woman has married a man, it’s her duty, part of the marriage contract if you like, to service him from the wedding day on, and to fulfil his every sexual ‘need.’
Jo
I think the discussion is more about people who set out in their relationships enjoying sex, but who then stopped enjoying it further down the line.
Oh, I don’t think you have to be an asexual to agree with FAB Libber: what she was getting at with the “receptacle” comment is that there are obviously many people who think of their sexual desire as a need that requires the service of another person- with no regard to this person’s well-being circumscribed by having to see what is supposed to be a mutually pleasurable experience solidifying a social bond as a service .
Just read Chris’ enumeration of the things he does for his wife: someone who doesn’t see sex as a service in a transactional relationship would never calculate services given and received like that. Indeed, when this calculation starts you know that it’s not about love anymore. I think you would have trouble finding a sociologist (and this for good reasons) that would label a relationship which is wholly or in part built on the conscious calculation of costs and benefits “friendship” or “love”.
However, I must admit that I myself have come to the realization that sex for sex’ sake is not fulfilling, often troublesome and potentially frustrating. (Also keep in mind that there are many people who need sex not because of a physical need but because they equate having sex with being loved.) Therefore, this “need” for release is not that important for me- because I have a hand. If I need release I will see that I get it with my hand. As an expression of love or friendship or affection sex is so much more than just a “release”. After all, there are different kinds of sex you can have- there is not only one, i.e. one that circles around release (or the expectation of a regularly given service).
kurukurushoujo, exactly!
Also, I think there is a lot of post-catholicism hangover from ye olden days whereby blindness was supposedly some sort of guaranteed byproduct of wanking.
In fact, a lot of this “sex is necessary” (within marriage, nowdays partnership) is also a religious hangover, also subscribed to by the non-religious. The religious lot started the concept in order to increase their number of followers.
Sex, as in penetrative sex, is only “necessary” in the production of children. Outside that framework, it is a hobby. Whilst it might be ‘nice’ for your partner to share your hobby, it is not any kind of duty to participate in your partner’s hobby. Mr Scrapbook does not participate in “her hobby”.
Most longterm marriages/partnerships will have the frequency of sex drop off sometime between six months and two years. It can be the lack of desire from either party, or external events. Long term, it is almost mission impossible to have two people, with an exact-matched sex drive, to then also co-ordinate sexual activity when BOTH parties are equally desirous at the same time. Add to that the media and ‘sex therapists’ advising ranges of frequencies for ‘healthy relationships’, when mutual love and respect are far more critical components to a healthy relationship than the frequency of ‘bumping uglies’.
For heterosexual women, whilst some will have more sexual desire pre-menopause, for others it is the opposite. That can be in part due to the constant worry of unwanted pregnancy in the back of her mind during the reproductive years. Unwanted pregnancy is something most men don’t really think about – some men are actually ‘surprised’ when it happens – it’s like they never really paid attention in Sex Ed classes or something. Newsflash: The leading cause of pregnancy is PIV sex. And no contraception is 100% failsafe. Men’s career prospects are never affected by pregnancy either. The woman is the one taking all the ‘risk’ from the ‘hobby’. So which partner is actually the selfish and inconsiderate one insisting that she ‘accomodate’ him?
Jo must be about 12 if she thinks that sexual desire is some sort of static and unchanging thing. Internal (health) and external (stress/event) factors will affect most people’s level of sexual desire throughout their lifetimes. It is pretty dumb to label people as ‘sexuals’ and ‘asexuals’ as if it were immutable. Thank gawd you weren’t proposing perma-tattoos on foreheads, or there would be a lot of crossing out and re-tattooing going on. A world shortage of tattoo ink may occur.
Carol Pateman’s book The Sexual Contract describes male supremacist versions of marriage very succinctly. Men presume marriage and now long term or even short heterosexual relationships are ones wherein the man expects/demands to be sexually serviced by the woman as and when he wishes. The woman’s role is to sexually service him as and when he demands/expects. But of course this is never explicitly stated. Instead men will claim ‘but if you love me you would just allow me access to your body (as and when I demand) because I really, really cannot go 24 hours/2 days or whatever without my penis thrusting inside you. ‘ Only he usually doesn’t say it so bluntly but that is what these men want – uninterrupted male sex right to women’s bodies. Then too there is the male-centric claim that men need regular access to women’s bodies, particularly women’s bodies who are owned by the male such as when the woman is married or the woman is in a long-term/short-term heterosexual relationship with the man. In fact any time a woman so much as smiles at a man or says ‘hello’ to a man she is viewed by the man as a suitable target for his sexual demands/expectations. Men view women who are not claimed/owned by other men as sexually available to them. All of this is part of what is rightly termed male sex right to women and girls.
Woe betide any woman who is ‘owned by the man’ because he will within a short time seek to enact his male sex right to women’s bodies by whining or attempting to coerce the woman into submitting to his sexual demands. After all what does it matter if a man has unlimited sexual access to a wife’s/female partner’s body since she need do nothing apart from lie still and let the man thrust away (that is termed ‘real sex’ by the way because it benefits men and women’s sexual desires/wishes are irrelevant).
Then we have pseudo claims that female and male partners should always negotiate sexual activity (which is true but then we have this claim) and it is imperative that if one person (primarily female) does not want to engage in sexual activity she is told she is selfish for denying the man his (rightful) sexual pleasure. Now if it is the man who is saying ‘no’ well that is acceptable because men cannot ‘perform on demand can they?’ That is if one believes ‘real sex’ = erect penis thrusting into a female’s body. No, men have the right to say no because they have been accorded the right of sexual autonomy – something which continues to be denied to women.
So the reason why these men are complaining and whining is because some women not all, are daring to say ‘my body and my sexuality belongs to me it is not a man’s property and I not the man will decide if I wish to engage in any sexual activity.’ But, but these men say ‘I married you or you and I are in a sexual relationship and because I love you this means you must demonstrate your love by always being sexually available to me as and when I wish and look I did this or that for you so now you must repay me by submitting to my sexual demands.’ That is where the sexual contract comes into effect and it is one which is designed to maintain male ownership of women’s sexuality and bodies. This means of course that the woman has no rights of sexual autonomy but instead she must sexually service the man as and when he wishes. Oh the excuses used by men who believe being denied sexual access to a woman’s body is ‘worse than death.’ The man will suffer horrible physical pain, he will suffer ‘blue balls’ why he might even spontaneously implode because he cannot expel his sexual desire into a female body. All are lies because men can easily remedy their sexual feelings by using their hands to masturbate. Something which many men do whilst they are consuming pornography! But that’s not ‘real sex is it?’ Neither does it prove to the man he is a real man!
For many many centuries male supremacy enforced the belief that once a man marries a woman her body and her sexuality belongs to him to do with in whatever way he wishes and if the woman refused the man sexual access to her body she was not fulfilling her part of the marriage contract. However the woman could not demand reciprocal arrangements because the man’s body and sexuality belongs to him not to her which is why men continue to view women as their sexual property.
Certainly female/male long-term sexual relationships will experience what is commonly termed sexual difficulties but that does not mean the man is being denied his ‘male sex right to the woman’ if she chooses not to agree to sexual activity. That is the woman’s right and just because she has entered/or is in a long-term sexual relationship with a male this does not now mean her body and sexuality are the man’s property and she cannot refuse sexual activity.
But of course many men or even most men refuse to accept the fact that women like men own their bodies and sexualities and women like men have the right to refuse sexual contact as and when they wish. But of course the reality is that our male supremacist society continues to deny women their sexual autonomy and bodily rights because women’s bodies exist for men.
This is why rape is commonly viewed as ‘either a misunderstanding’ or else ‘the woman has falsely accused a man of rape.’ After all how can a woman claim it is rape when she is in effect the man’s sexual property and no this is not a wild statement. Women continue to be bombarded with the message that they must always be sexually available to ‘the man in their life’ because to refuse him means he will either leave her or engage in an affair.
Marital rape is now a crime against women but despite fact there is a law criminalising husbands who rape their wives, only two cases as far I as I am aware have been prosecuted and the reason is because men continue to believe women’s bodies and women’s sexualities do not belong to women but are men’s sexual property 24/7. Then too girls continue to be socialised into believing the lie that they do not own their sexuality and bodies because these are men’s property and a woman’s/girl’s role in life is to be sexually pleasing to the male sexual partner since she has no autonomous sexuality. Boys however quickly learn that they are entitled to have sexual access to women, especially once the woman has entered into a sexual relationship with them, including if the relationship is a declaration of mutual love. Women must not refuse men their sex right because to do so is unnatural (sic) but certainly some men (not many) do recognise that a woman’s body and her sexuality belongs to her and marriage or a long-term relationship does not automatically entitle the man 24/7 sex right to the woman’s body. Instead he respects the woman’s right to say no to sexual contact and likewise the woman also respects his right to say no, which means that unless both parties mutually agree without any coercion or threats of ‘I’ll leave if you don’t give me what is my right’ (primarily said by the man because he has the greater socio-economic power) then sexual activity will not take place.
By the way some heterosexual couples do not engage in penetrative sex and horrors – some heterosexual couples do not even engage in any sexual activity. Are these relationships ‘love ones or are they just relationships between two friends.’ Male supremacy claims they are not ‘real relationships because the male has not conquered and penetrated the woman’s body with his penis. Utter nonsense but then male supremacy is only concerned with maintaining male domination and male control over women’s sexuality and bodies.
I don’t think husbands /male partners should assume that they have a “right” to sex at all. A marriage contract doesn’t override the woman’s will in these matters or her control of her own body.
Speaking from a purely subjective male perspective there is nothing less arousing than having sex with a woman who is merely going through the motions. If she is merely obliging me, I would quickly sense it and it would turn me off. I like to know feelings are reciprocal and that she’s into it as much as I am.
Ok I have a question:
Why does a wife (or a husband, she said Life of Brian stylee) have a duty to accommodate her (or his) spouse’s ‘need’ for sex.
BUT:
The spouse does NOT have to accommodate the non sex wanting partner’s desire to NOT have sex.
I have a supplementary question which is “don’t you think that maybe the non sex wanters may want sex if their spouses were better at it/had better personal hygiene and so on?”, but that would really cause confusion….
If a wife doesn’t want sex at all, and if a husband goes elsewhere, why should he be divorcable for it?
Well I’ve never seen an MP get ditched for an affair yet.
Also I think it’s unfair to say Mark’s post is ‘sad’. If he is happy with that state of affairs, surely it’s up to him?
I think Mark may have an OCD – the compulsive washing after being touched by anyone.
okay a confession and i wish to unload. if you don’t mind.
I have had numerous operations during my relationship with my husband. after each operation he wanted sex before the consultant said he should. I complied with the first few because I too wanted to do it too. But after three children I’d had enough as I’d been left with the lion’s share and no time or money for me to expand. On my last and final op he began an affair because I said I wanted more time to recover – he’s no spring chicken nor am I.
What is your advice? He’s gone off with compliant woman and I’m left looking after the children (three). I’m thankfully recovered now. He just wouldn’t wait as I asked.
Maggie, my sympathies to you.
Not because he has run off, but that you wasted so many years with a man who had absolutely no concern for your health or wellbeing.
There is a reason the doctors tell you not to have sex for (usually 6 weeks), also, not to do heavy lifting or stretch like hang the washing out – this is so you do not rip your internal stitches and haemorrhage to DEATH. Clearly he is a misogynist, and does not care for you at all – so don’t feel badly that he deserted you; do you really want to spend your life with someone who does not give a shit that he puts your life in danger, just for sex? Is he too damn lazy to use his hand rather than risk YOUR LIFE?
When it comes to the divorce settlement, with under-18 kids you may be able to get some reasonable settlement (not guaranteed). Be strong, do not feel sorry for any tale of financial woe he may try to spin (and they always do). Think of your children, and get as much as you can for their well being.
As for the other woman, do not feel animosity towards her, feel sympathy and pity. She is now conned by the jerk.
Best of luck to you.
I have to concur Maggie. I would be grateful I’m not compliant woman. Get a good lawyer is my advice.
One more thing Maggie –
NEVER EVER be tempted to take him back. Not even for the kids. He may try to sleeze his way back into your life, do not be fooled by his promises or apologies.
Write a reminder note to yourself for the occasion. Write out the things he has done:
Endangered your life
Does not care about your wellbeing or if you die
Abandoned you and the kids
Run off with another woman
Created havoc in your life due to his actions
[add your own, I am sure there are plenty]
The marriage is over. He is not the sort that would tolerate a sexless marriage, he will insist on sex. How are you going to feel, lying there, with him doing his business, KNOWING how little he cares for you? Hopefully I have made you ill at the thought of this, because it is perverse.
this PIV-contract that men, PIV-pozzies and MRAs always allude to also leaves no room for women to become politically aware, after having PIV with a partner, that PIV is demonstrably harmful to women, that its inherently inequitable due to the unequal physical and emotional risks between women and men, that its not even sex, and then QUITE LOGICALLY to decide that they arent going to do it anymore.
the PIV contract is literally, LITERALLY stunting heterosexual women from political and feminist growth, and making radical awakening and bringing radical change to their own lives impossible. its also deliberate. set women up so that they are economically dependant on men, set PIV up so that its understood without quesiton to be “SEX” then make everyone also understand that the man will abandon his life parter without hesitation, if she ever stops letting him stick his dick into her, for any reason. although a POLITICAL reason would probably be the most unforgivable reason wouldnt it? as opposed to perhaps a “medical problem” for example? making it completely clear what the intent is here, and that the intent is to prevent any kind of political resistance to PIV. to prevent radical feminism, in other words.
PIV is not sex, and therefore women who dont want PIV are not asexual, based on that fact alone. PIV is the festishization of female vulnerability, and women who are sick and fucking tired of being victimized in this way are not wrong for wanting to stop it.
Rowan’s been reading a different Mumsnet to me. There’s a thread on here about men having sex with their partners very soon after they’ve given birth, including a BJ 45 minutes after birth and sex on the maternity ward:
http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/1134877-to-think-that-having-sex-5-days-after-childbirth-is-plain-bloody-strange
Think that’s a pretty clear example of how entitled some men think they are to sex.
regarding the above link to immediately-post-childbirth PIV, the commenters there were overwhelmingly disposed to not believe a man who “bragged” about fucking his wife very shortly after she gave birth. they said he was probably lying to his friend about it, and that theres no way this would really happen, or that it was unlikely to have happened because its so patently unreasonable, and dangerous for the woman.
mackinnon talks about “reality” and how brutal it often is for women AND how both women and men are disinclined to believe the brutality of it, even though its true, and has been documented. rape stats, child sexual abuse stats, sexual discrimination in the workplace stats, its all documented, and has been for some time. she cites one study about sexual harassment in US federal workplaces as occurring “more often than not.” we are living in a world where sexual brutality of women and children IS THE NORM, its not the exception. and yet, victims are not to be believed generally. that is, we are responding in a way that is not consistent with reality. we are literally delusional about it.
this is how invested we are in avoiding this particular truth, about men and what they do to women. we make shit up, and disregard whats real. we literally create another reality from the actual reality, because we like the fake one better. the “unreal” jives better with the narrative, but conflicts mightily with our actual experience. its stunning, it really is. i quote mackinnon here:
http://factcheckme.wordpress.com/2010/11/20/moron-reality/
i would add that WOMEN being delusional about this has a self-protective component, because women are for the most part still dependent on men, so literally cannot afford to acknowledge or even realize the truth about men as a sexual class, or even on one man, if she is dependant on him individually. women are very invested in disregarding reality too, even when the truth about what men do to women and children has been acted out on their very bodies. ie. they have experienced the sexual brutality from the victims POV, firsthand.
and MEN of course, many many of them, have experienced the truth about what men do to women, from the perpetrators POV, and yet they still deny it exists. because they have never experienced it from the victims POV, the victims POV does not exist. therefore the victims do not exist. therefore the victimization also does not exist (its a victimless crime). and if theres no victim, theres no perpetrator either. easy, peasy.
this is what it is, to live in a patriarchy. one POV dominates, and its always the mens POV, whatever that is.
Re the posters on the sex after birth thread not believing the Nigel, it could also be down to cognitive dissonance though FCM is already describing this.
I’ve enjoyed reading your blog FCM. Beautifully enlightening. Thanks to all who replied to me. I know what I have to do and I’m not going to ignore the truth of it. Hard as that may be initially it will give me freedom ultimately. And that is something to look forward to.
Maggie, the best of luck to you. I want second everything FCM has said.
I too was left with kids. It will be in the long run the best thing you have ever done for yourself and for your children. It will be hard, but worth it. When you feel so down remember this blog and that other women whom you do not even know, are routing for you. You may doubt that, but we are.
Well, when you have never lived in a relationship you kind of assume that married people have sex. Or at least that they go out of their way to be nice to each other. “Bear each others’ burdens” and all that. That is why the first few sexless months come as a shock. “I have made a lifetime commitment, this is really important to me, she could do it easily, she is supposed to love me, and she just does not care! Just what is going on here?”
Various ladies tell how they got completely divorced from their own desire, through feeling compelled to accommodate their husbands. With respect, that is not limited to women, or to those who say no. Consider: You finally find a woman who will have you. Very quickly you realize that she wants it much less than you do. So, you train yourself to put a brake on any desire you may feel: “damp it down, keep a lid on it, she will likely not want it, explore gently if there is any interest before letting yourself go”. Not great for spontaneity, nor for being connected to your feelings. Eventually things settle down. She will be interested, or acquiescent, half a dozen times a year, at unpredictable intervals. Nothing you can think of that will make any difference (believe me, you try!). And she, unlike you, is not willing to provide ‘friendly help’ at other times. So you stay alert for possibilities, and grab any chance you get, no matter how you happen to be feeling. It is that or nothing. In the end you hardly know how you feel about it. After all, your feelings make no difference: not to events, and not to your spouse.
One poster proclaimed the principle that sex should happen only when both parties feel spontaneously interested. Only problem with that is that sex would be a quite rare event – which I guess is fine for those who want it that way. Others might well give it up before the happy day came along.
I think men would give a lot in return for a moral (not legal) commitment from their wives to consider their sexual desires. I know I would. But it is not on offer. The world is not like that, and there is no point in whining about it. Probably the best we can do is to make sure that people know the score, up front. Sex Ed for young men: “When you are in a stable relationship your sex life will be at the whim of your partner. Your desires will matter little. It is normal, and expected, that you will have little or no sex for much of the time. You might get lucky, but whatever sex you get is a bonus.” With some practical advice: “Most men still find life in a couple worth while. Be friendly and flexible, try very hard to make a close emotional and intimate relationship, but prepare for the sexless times. From the outset, insist on a separate bedroom with a broadband internet connection, and demand the freedom to masturbate and watch pornography in private. Of course that means that your main sexual partner is likely to be a computer screen. If that is more than you can bear, stay single, keep your freedom, and get your sex through seduction, as you can, or prostitution, as you must.”
This is not particularly happy advice, though (and many women would balk at the separate bedrooms, or the pornography). Can anybody come up with something better?
Firing squad?
Can anybody come up with something better?
Homosexuality.
suicide?
What I have seen being advanced, again and again on this thread is what I think we should not call ‘The Fry Fallacy’.
We have all these men, complaining that when they FINALLY get a woman to have sex with them, (note the finally please) the bitchez just don’t want to do it every minute of the day. And concluding that this is because Women Don’t Like Sex.
Nothing to do with them personally you understand, their personal hygiene, their other annoying habits, the fact that they’re still wearing trousers dating from 1973. Just – Women Don’t Like Sex.
Therefore I have to suggest homosexuality as a solution cos y’all are talking like a well known homosexual male.
now call the fry fallacy curse these early morning typos.
I’m not keen on homosexual sex. It’s never really appealed to me. I think the answer of a man who ‘desires’ more sex is either to put up with it or find someone else to satisfy his lust. He could have a mistress or if the law permits a second wife. He doesn’t have to leave his wife. The same goes for a woman who ‘desires’ more sex. It is a difficult choice.
My own wife has said that it would OK for me to have a second wife, especially if she is prepared to help with the housework. My own reluctance of doing this is that I’m not sure how it would affect the kids and my relationship with my wife. Plus I haven’t found anyone who could fit the bill. Even a mistress is difficult as I like to tell the truth.
But my wife’s loss of libido is probably connected to her physical ailment, and to some of my disgusting habits.
It is interesting to me that so many posts from men are vilified as whiny or misogynistic as they try to discuss the male point of view on this topic. At the risk of being attacked for raising an ugly question, I have to wonder if there is ANY point in your minds when a woman has ANY responsibility to her partner to fulfill his sexual desires. Don’t most cultures recognize sexual partnership as an essential reason people get married? Isn’t this understanding (or misunderstanding, as many here seem to be suggesting) at the center of the issue you are discussing here?
Over the years, I have known so many men who tell stories of how they dated a woman for a period of time, had great sex as part of a wonderful relationship and thought that they had the perfect partner. Once married, these same men noticed that the woman almost immediately changed and started to refuse or withold sex on a regular basis. These men feel cheated in that they married their wives thinking they knew their sexual appetites and believing their sexual desires were equal and compatible. What do you make of women who go “all out” to form a relationship with men with strong sexual relations and then change their behavior completely once they manage to get the man to marry them? Many of the women here seem to be saying that if the man loves the woman, he should simply learn to deal with the lack of passion and sex in the relationship. But if the man has a strong need for physical intimacy with his wife, how is it wrong for him to ask her to behave at least somewhat like the woman he thought he married?
I’m not talking about women who’s libidos change over time due to various factors. I am speaking specifically of women who present themselves one way before marriage and quite another way almost immediately after marriage. I hear of this sort of scenario more often than any other as a reason why many men feel intensely frustrated with their marriages and feel the need to express their displeasure with their wives over the lack of physical intimacy in the relationship. Often, these guys are labelled “jerks” and “insenstive” by people who are unwilling to accept that they have some right to expect that the woman they married was being honest about her libido and not just trying to land a husband. If women want to make it a crime for a man to attempt to “guilt” a woman into sex, shouldn’t there be another law that makes it illegal to deliberately mislead a partner into believing you are something you are not sexually? It seems to me to be a terrible thing for a woman to lure a man with a strong sexual appetite into marriage only to consign him to a lifetime of begging her to act like she did when they were married.
The huge pink elephant in the room here is the fact that men and women often have different sexual appetites and women often work very hard to hide this fact up to the point of marriage because they know that the man they are interested in would probably not marry them if he knew she was not really sexually compatible with him. It seems that many women are completely comfortable with this oft-discussed form of deception and would claim it as some sort of feminine prerogative. I would say that complete liberation in the bedroom should require complete honesty before marriage vows are taken.
Yes, I can see the advantages. Regrettably it is not for me.
Autoerotic asphyxiation?
I can see what you’re saying here but I’m not sure about women deceiving men in this way in order to get married. Fake orgasms before the wedding.
As a society we tend to put a lot of emphasis on the need to be together for eternity if become married. I actually got married to get a spouse visa when I was in Japan. We went to registry in Yokohama one afternoon filled out all the forms, grabbed two people to be witnesses and hey presto we were hitched: two weeks later I got the visa.
I mean to say sod what society thinks about death us do part or even for that matter ‘thou shall not have it off outside of marriage’. Having said all that, when you have children its different, because you have a responsibility to those children’s welfare. Well, I feel I have. So if the problem of infrequent sex is an issue in your relationship (like me) then a way has to be sorted.
long walk off a short pier? bungee jumping without a rope?
Well, Mr. Divine, I think your point of view regarding marriage is more alternative than many of my friends and acquaintances. Most men I know value the institution of marriage and do not want to cheat on their wives. Some of the men who have cheated have done so because they don’t feel their wives were honest with them before they were married about their true feelings about frequent penetrative sex. These men love their wives and don’t want to hurt them, yet they have strong physical urges that they are unable to deny and can’t satisfy with mere self gratification. I find it truly remarkable that so many women suggest that men with strong libidos should simply “get over” their need for human contact. Some men consider sexual activity with a woman a highlight of their life experience. If they enjoy sex with a woman that much and married believing (based on their partner’s behavior BEFORE marriage) that they would enjoy regular and frequent sexual activity, doesn’t this present a legitimate issue that should be addressed by the woman? Shouldn’t she have to admit to her dishonesty and urge the man to find pleasure elsewhere, even if it means divorce? Perhaps the man would still choose to stay in the relationship and live without regular sex, but at least the woman would be owning her misleading behavior. Such honesty would probably strengthen some of the relationships and end others. Regardless of the outcome, two people wouldn’t be forcing each other to live in ways they do no wish to live.
PIV is not sex. if men understood and/or cared that this was the absolute truth of it, this discussion would look very different.
example: in every mansplainin’ comment above, use “put her at risk for pregnancy” where the word “sex” is currently being used. see how its different?
dont ask the question if you dont want to know the answer.
Dick-centric commenters aplenty.
Especially the one currently in the market for a “2nd wife or mistress”.
*puke* dudes
The world does not revolve around your penis. You have a frickin hand fer christ’s sake. Use it.
I can identify easily why women don’t want sex with you – your attitudes towards women. Nothing more that a masturbation aid to be at your beck and call. She is not your live-in prostitute.
@Carl: I too don’t want to cheat on my wife and that’s why I’m reluctant to take up my wife’s suggestion of having a second wife or a mistress. And you’re right, masturbation can only go so far in fulfilling one’s sexual and physical needs. Suggesting one should merely use one’s hands is not a very perspective recommendation when the whole body ‘desires’ the whole body of another. One could say that it is a recommendation from someone who has not experienced the full rapture of sex with another, and therefore doesn’t know what they’re talking about.
I actually got my oats last night, and as usual I have noticed that I’m a lot calmer and naturally higher this morning… far more so then when I’ve masturbated. Sex with another is indeed more than masturbatory ejaculation, it is a fulfillment of one’s primary desires akin to eating and breathing. And when you do not met those desires one can get highly frustrated, and some people take out their frustration on others with physical and verbal abuse. Consequently, it is a problem that needs calm consideration and dialogue from both parties in order to prevent such abuse.
after PIV, a woman is often worried, not relaxed. i wonder what she might have to be worried about?
PIV is not about relaxation. thats not what its for, and it isnt even what it DOES. thats one of the biggest lies out there. PIV is stressful for women, because a common side-effect is pregnancy.
Having had the snip …
Ah the old snip. Most men have NOT had it of course, and still go on about piv just like you do. And YOU undoubtedly went on about it the same way, BEFORE you were snipped. In fact, the proof that you believe that piv is sex, is that you even GOT snipped. I mean really. Why bother, if you didn’t insist on sticking your dick into women? The vasectomy argument is a derail, and you are a super special snowflake aren’t you? Congratulations.
Of course, the vasectomy argument also assumes a lot. She is supposed to trust not only that you had it, but that it was successful. She is supposed to have positive associations with piv, even after she spent her entire childbearing years (or yours) trying desperately to avoid the negative consequences (to her) of piv, and after you stuck your dick in her all those years, without caring about the consequences to her. She’s also literally putting her life in your hands by trusting that you aren’t fucking around, and won’t give her a disease, even though you are constantly thinking about fucking around on her, and might even be doing it, but at any rate she’s probably worried it. And she should be, not only because this is always a valid concern, but because YOU are probably making it clear to her that there’s something to be worried about, with YOU. Because you aren’t HAPPY. You poor dear!
Every single one of my points still stand. Next!
@FCM: I got the snip after our 4th child. My wife and 4th child nearly died. My wife would love to have more children. I too want more children. I am interested in adopting children from the third world. I would get unsnipped if I could if I had a second wife who wanted children.
Ooh Cath have you seen the latest PSC?
I am 22 and in a long-distance relationship and see my girlfriend fortnightly. Recently, she said my behaviour is driving a wedge between us. After missing her for two weeks, I look forward to sex. However, if she is not in the mood, or too tired from her course, or from my arriving late at night, I become withdrawn, quiet and angry. I try to fight these feelings but, ultimately it results in my giving her the cold shoulder. She says sex is no longer enjoyable as she feels pressured. She feels that if she doesn’t comply I will punish her. We have decided to abstain until she feels ready. I don’t want to be this way.
Your girlfriend is not rejecting you. Some people find it hard to connect their longing for someone with the reality of seeing them again. They need a period of adjustment before their bodies catch up with their mental desire. If you try to rush, you will push your girlfriend away. Discuss with her what she needs. Does she want caring touches to start with, rather than sexual ones? Or does she first need to feel connected via relaxed conversation and laughter? Perhaps she simply needs reassurance, as separations tend to raise questions about fidelity. She may need to feel seduced all over again, each time you are reunited. I understand that it is difficult for you not to have sex the minute you see her, but she is wired differently, so slow down.
Good advice until the last bit. Which should in fact read, stop treating your girlfriend as a superannuated sex doll, you tosspot.
Do all the men who complain that their partners don’t want sex with them ever think that just MAYBE it is is because they have completely alienated them by treating them, not as human beings who deserve consideration, but as elaborate masturbatory devices?
If not maybe they should.
At the risk of being attacked for raising an ugly question, I have to wonder if there is ANY point in your minds when a woman has ANY responsibility to her partner to fulfill his sexual desires.
No.
And the same goes for a woman in a partnership with a man, two men in a relationship, two women in a relationship, and any other combination of human beings.
If you want a partner who can’t say no, get a sex doll. Human beings can say no, and that no should always be respected.
These men love their wives and don’t want to hurt them, yet they have strong physical urges that they are unable to deny and can’t satisfy with mere self gratification.
No, you see the desire for an orgasm CAN be satisfied with masturbation, if a person is physically capable of masturbating.
Now what if, a man has these ‘strong physical urges’ but there is no willing sex partner around? It happens. What does he do then? Are you saying he is justified in committing rape?
If the answer to that one is NO (and if it’s YES we’re in even deeper trouble than I thought), then quite simply men ARE capable of suppressing their sexual urges.
Whether they then want to remain in a marriage where their partner will not have sex with them is a matter of individual choice for negotiation between the two parties.
@POLLY: you wrote:
‘I have to wonder if there is ANY point in your minds when a woman has ANY responsibility to her partner to fulfill his sexual desires.’
Polly you answered, ‘ No’
That’s why I want to know you.
Strange isn’t it?
Friday night, and I’m pissed so it comes to me in bits.
Then you write: ‘No, you see the desire for an orgasm CAN be satisfied with masturbation, if a person is physically capable of masturbating.’
But then I say to you that is more a masturbation. It is more than an ejaculation. I say to you that is body against body. Body against body, body for body , body with body , body in love with body, it is body.
It is more than the end product, it everything you have for that person and for you.
IT IS.
How much more do you want from me?
Haha, you beat me to it Polly. I saw that last night and thought about posting it here. That’s as far as I got.
I’m too pissed to reply properly to both of you but is it not wonderful that it inspires both of you to questinn. its to much on a friday night.
Does this mean you’ve pinned Mr. Divine? Temporarily! I can’t concentrate but I’ll be back!
I’m smashed!
love steve
ps. oh f it.
stop it, stop using my body, my being, for your own pleasure, stop it, i forbid it.
Ok, you’ve blown it, so we’re done here Mr D. You’re banned. Again.
*thanks* Cath
Cannot say I am surprised with the banning, just that it took so long.
I could see the male entitlement issues from miles away. And 2nd wife?! So the setup is one wifey to look after house & kids, other wifey to look after dick.
Interesting that he and some of the others outed themselves as confusing ‘sex’ (meaning PIV) with sexual activity and/or intimacy. Intimacy does NOT require PIV (or body against body blah blah). Sexual activity does NOT have to include PIV, nor even his orgasm – I won’t say her orgasm, because that gets ‘overlooked’ so routinely it ain’t funny. And if you started thinking about HER needs and HER pleasure first and foremost, the situation may change (if you have not already damaged your relationship with her already). But nor is “getting sex [from her]” some sort of profit & loss balance sheet, whereby you ‘graciously’ do household chores in order to “get sex”. She can sense that kind of thinking a mile away. That is not love, that is you trying to work out what the payment schedule is for the one you treat as a live-in prostitute.
Clearly, it is the way you think dudes. The way you think about women, sex, and getting your ‘needs’ fulfilled.
And dudes, you also need to remember that most women do NOT orgasm via PIV. So whilst you are pounding away trying to get your rocks off, she is probably faking interest or arousal, whilst really she is bored senseless by the PIV process. Beyond the first minute, the P in the V, does not feel like much for the V-owner. And that is why most women will ‘go off’ PIV sex, because they do end up feeling like a blowup doll.
FCM made a great point about the snip and infidelity (as well as other great points). And for someone openly shopping for Wifey #2, yes that would be a major concern for Wifey #1.
oh, and the shopping around for wifey #2, certainly explains the very bizarre behaviour of some dude, coming onto a feminist blog, trying to find out where the female commenters live and their likes/dislikes. It’s not a dating website FFS.
A good example of male entitlement of a male, barging into a female space, in order to get his needs met.
the wife nearly died from childbirth…and no longer has positive associations with PIV. wow what a bizarre reaction on her part. fuckdolls arent supposed to make associations at all, how dare she!
I fully understand and respect that this is a feminist site. As such, I can appreciate that many women who post here have rather defined views on the power relationship between men and women and how sexual activity between the sexes often reflects current societal norms (in ways that are often unequal). However, there is a fundamental dishonesty at play here when people fire off angry and incendiary comments at men simply because they feel empowered to do so by a certain pack mentality.
Polly and FCM completely (and it seems, deliberately) misconstrued the questions I have posed for the women who participate on this site. Polly, you answer a flat “No” to my question of whether a woman has ANY responsibility to her partner to fulfill his sexual desires. However, your answer appears to completely disregard the situation I described where a woman has deliberately misled a man prior to marriage about her sexual appetite and then has changed significantly once married. I think your flat answer of “no” seems to be handed down without much supporting reasons other than the idea that the man should be happy to have a relationship with his hand. I find it hard to believe that you or anyone here really believes that self gratification is anywhere near as intense or pleasurable as sharing intense passion with another human being. If a man married a woman with the understanding that regular PIV sex would be a significant part of the physical relationship (and with the understanding that regular physical relations would be an elemental part of the relationship), how is it that the man is wrong to expect this sort of relationship to continue after marriage? You conveniently skip the particulars of the situation I have described for you and gave me a flat, generic answer that no woman in the same situation (only reversed) would accept.
Polly went on to suggest that continuing in a sexless marriage “is a matter of individual choice for negotiation between the two parties.” Really? Haven’t you and others here already argued that any attempt by a man to convince his parter to have PIV sex with him is an abusive tactic that should be legally actionable? What kind of negotiation can occur if the man can’t ask his wife to behave as she did before they were married?
I am also amazed that Polly managed to take my line of questioning into completely unrelated territory by suggesting that a refusal to accept masturbation as an alternative to PIV sex would somehow lead to rape: “Now what if, a man has these ‘strong physical urges’ but there is no willing sex partner around? It happens. What does he do then? Are you saying he is justified in committing rape?” This is a rather silly conclusion to make – as though I ever suggested that a man can’t control his physical urges. I did not. I certainly can and do. It seems more than obvious that human beings often crave and need physical sexual contact with another human being. The experience of sharing sexual desire with another person is quite different from self-pleasuring and can’t be replaced. Anyone who has experienced good sex with another human being would have to agree that it is sensually hugely different from self stimulation. If I can’t have relations with my wife, I have no problem satisfying my urges manually. However, I can’t imagine being misled by a woman before marriage into thinking I would have a willing and interested party in PIV sex only to find out that she had other intentions after marriage. I would not want to live out huge parts of my life wishing for a relationship I thought that I had. It would be necessary for me to discuss this with my wife at some point, even if it made her angry. Honesty and truth in the relationship would demand no less.
FCM made comments to the effect that PIV is not sex. I suppose this has been argued for quite some time already within the feminist movement, but I think it goes without saying that PIV is sex from both a medical and legal standpoint, according to current cultural standards found all over the earth. If FCM would like to argue for an alternate standard, she may do so. However, her point of view is hardly the world view that most humans would subscibe to. I can understand how some women may see PIV sex as a disgusting and deliberate act of male domination; however, that is not what most people think of when they think of sex between a man and a woman. I see PIV sex as an ultimately intense sharing of energy, passion and love between two consenting adults. If a woman does not like this sort of sex, she should not marry a man who does without explicitely telling him that she does not like it.
Oh come on. I am a completely ‘rabid sex-negative radfem’ and you totally left me out. Insulting. So I will counter you in the morning when my hurt widdle feelings have recovered.
The male entitlement to women’s bodies is so thick in here, you could cut it with a knife.
Sorry, FAB Libber, didn’t mean to make you feel ignored. You didn’t comment much on anything I wrote, so I didn’t have anything to say to you. Nothing personal. I didn’t come here for the purpose of “barging into a female space, in order to get his needs met.” I just happened upon the site and thought the discussion was interesting and important. I don’t feel entitled to anyone’s body. I just think that some relationships begin with lies and end with betrayal because women are sometimes comfortable with deceiving men before marriage.
Another thing, FAB Libber: does sex-negative mean you don’t like sex at all or just sex with men? I am not familiar with the term. I can see that this discussion is not at all popular with many of the women here. Please understand that a dialogue about this topic seems like a healthy thing to me. I am not looking to fight with anyone or engage in name calling. I find your points of view interesting and wonder what latitude you offer in considering the cause and effect of human decision-making in the way that the sexes interact. I honestly feel there is a real problem with relationships between men and women that have begun with women who misrepresent themselves as equally desirous of PIV sex with men before marriage and then reveal their true feelings only after they have been married. This problem cuts across cultures and results in many ills in society. I would never condone rape or violence against women in any way or form. However, it seems to me that honesty before marriage would go a long way to defuse situations that become quite incendiary after marriage when men come to feel neglected, lied to and cheated by a partner who saw nothing wrong with using sex as a tool to obtain a wedding band. You can call a man’s feelings about this situation vile and whiny, but you would be ingnoring a significant opportunity to speak to other women about this issue and urge them not to prostitute themselves before marriage if they do not wish to feel like prostitutes after marriage (because their husbands press them to behave sexually as they did before marrriage). Why not address this issue? It might save a great many women a whole lot of trouble later in life. It would also help women to see that they don’t need to be sexual objects for men at ANY point in a relationship with men.
By the way, FCM, not all women find PIV sex to be stressful. Many enjoy falling asleep in their lover’s arms after sex a wonderful, relaxing and meaningful experience. My wife and I always sleep very soundly wrapped in each others’ arms. That is what PIV sex in a commited relationship is supposed to be like. You make it sound like women the world over are in misery because PIV sex is still allowed in civilized societies. Many women are perfectly comfortable with PIV and don’t view it as some sort of terrible, depraved act of servitude. Ask some happily married women about this and I’m sure you’ll find that many of them value PIV sex almost as much as their husbands.
Ha! Let me rephrase my last statement…
Ask some happily married women about this and I’m sure you’ll find that many of them value PIV sex almost as much as their husbands do.”
Don’t want any of you thinking that I would imagine the sex would be more valuable than the person… 😉 O.K., here come the jokes…
My wife and I always sleep very soundly wrapped in each others’ arms
Is that physically possible? Don’t you move around at night, or get a dead arm from the trapped limbs situation?
Polly went on to suggest that continuing in a sexless marriage “is a matter of individual choice for negotiation between the two parties.” Really? Haven’t you and others here already argued that any attempt by a man to convince his parter to have PIV sex with him is an abusive tactic that should be legally actionable? What kind of negotiation can occur if the man can’t ask his wife to behave as she did before they were married?
The type of negotiation that leads to a)counselling that may find out what problems in the marriage have led to the couple growing apart in OTHER ways than sexually, which may make them want to be more sexually intimate or b)the husband finding out how his own behaviour is putting his wife off sex with him or c)deciding to amicably divorce and go their own separate ways.
There are lots of other possibilites -maybe they could agree to an open relationship. It is telling however that the only possible solution YOU see is the wife putting up and shutting up without hubby having to examine his own behaviour one bit.
I am also amazed that Polly managed to take my line of questioning into completely unrelated territory by suggesting that a refusal to accept masturbation as an alternative to PIV sex would somehow lead to rape: “Now what if, a man has these ‘strong physical urges’ but there is no willing sex partner around? It happens. What does he do then? Are you saying he is justified in committing rape?” This is a rather silly conclusion to make – as though I ever suggested that a man can’t control his physical urges.
Yes you did, right here.
These men love their wives and don’t want to hurt them, yet they have strong physical urges that they are unable to deny and can’t satisfy with mere self gratification.
You said they are ‘unable to deny’ them. Now either they can deny them, or they can’t. Which is it? You’d hardly be the first person to suggest rape is justified if men feel horny, Jack Straw said something very similar recently.
Polly and FCM completely (and it seems, deliberately) misconstrued the questions I have posed for the women who participate on this site. Polly, you answer a flat “No” to my question of whether a woman has ANY responsibility to her partner to fulfill his sexual desires. However, your answer appears to completely disregard the situation I described where a woman has deliberately misled a man prior to marriage about her sexual appetite and then has changed significantly once married. I think your flat answer of “no” seems to be handed down without much supporting reasons other than the idea that the man should be happy to have a relationship with his hand.
My flat answer of ‘no’ is handed down because unwanted sexual intercourse is rape. Which bit of that don’t you understand?
Now if a woman GOES OFF SEX with a man (not your bizarre scenario where she deliberately ‘lies’ to trap him into marriage, are you Stephen Fry commenting under a pseudonym?) there could be a thousand and one reasons. Doesn’t matter – he’s still not entitled to sex from her or anyone else.
If these dudes are so worried about being ‘trapped’ into a sexless marriage, the solution’s really simple, they shouldn’t get married. You seem to believe that they only do it so they can have ‘sex on tap’ anyway, so they’re obviously not that attractive, or they wouldn’t need to get married to ‘ensure’ a continuing supply of sex.
PS if anyone else wants to marry me (well it’s understandable), I don’t believe in marriage/cohabitation, because I have my own lovely home already thank you, and I don’t do dudes.
I thank you.
And one final thing.
If you want to have sex with someone who is clearly reluctant and not enjoying it at all, what does that say about you as a person?
Think about it.
PS re ‘cuddly sleepers’
A man without a desired avenue for sexual relief struggles, I say, struggles with his sexual need – like a man in a desert driven beserk with thirst. Its inhumane for his partner to not give him relief if, physically, she is able to do so (water or sex). I do not in the slightest condome rape, but I know that wilful, persistent refusal is unreasonable pehaviour and thats why I am a proponent of both porn and prostitution. They can (temorarily) free men from the tyranny of the Female No.
Wow, coming back to the party late and there’s a whole load of male entitlement to PIV sex going on. All the men who have posted feel the same thing. But the last poster puts it so eloquently.
They [porn and prostitution] can (temorarily), (sic), free men from the tyranny of the Female No.
Wow again. There is no love expressed here. The only way these men can express ‘love’ is through the act of sticking their dicks into a woman – any woman will do btw so long as it’s (barely) legal. Consent is dirty word to these men, as is, I suspect, the act of PIV itself.
I was going to address some of the points that Carl raised, but Polly has in the meantime, covered most of them. Plus the fact that re-reading Carl’s comments induces brain-coma (so it was not just the late hour). I might bookmark the comments to use as a solution to sleepness in the future.
and thats why I am a proponent of both porn and prostitution. They can (temorarily) free men from the tyranny of the Female No.
Good fucking grief! The “tyranny of the female no”. I think you hit some sort of male entitlement bingo there Ramiie. Congrats I guess. Or pity.
Women are human. They have the right to full bodily integrity and autonomy at all times (free from the ‘tyranny of men’ and the constant pressure to have coitus btw!). It might also interest you to know that most prostituted women HATE and DESPISE you, and are only putting up with you using their bodies as a masturbatory aid because they need the money, and have few other options in life to get it any other way. Yes, they hate and despise you. Digest that. Around 90% of prostituted women want to get out. The ‘happy hooker’ is such a tiny minority, that it is almost mythical.
Addressing dudes above in general, you keep missing the point that most women do not orgasm from PIV (and I did not say all, but most). Most don’t even get that much pleasure from PIV, they tolerate it, because they are doing you a favour (they might love you blah blah) and so they grin and bear it. Most dudes do not bother about the woman’s orgasm, or if they do, they are just so damn clueless, that the woman gives up and fakes an orgasm so he will stop doing that wrong thing. Most won’t want to hurt your precious little feelings (which is actually your fragile egos). So, if you make it clear that you can put your Masterful Sex God(TM) ego aside, perhaps you might be able to have an honest sexual exchange with the woman you profess to love. And finally, she is not a robot. So what works for her one night, may not necessarily work the next night. And here is the No.1 universal turn-off: Pressure. Pressure to have sex, pressure to perform in certain ways. Start respecting a woman’s autonomy, actual needs, stop pressuring, and also, don’t make ALL touching sexual or leading up to the sexual.
Jeezus dudes, you really are a clueless bunch.
I am UTTERLY convinced Ramiie is some sort of performance artist. Nobody could be that funny unintentionally.
I do not in the slightest condome rape, but I know that wilful, persistent refusal is unreasonable pehaviour
Well legally it may well be grounds for divorce and/or annulment. Between two people no refusal to have sex is ‘unreasonable’. Nobody owes anyone else sex, why is this so hard for dudes to understand?
If I’m attracted to someone and it’s not mutual, I don’t say they’re being ‘unreasonable’. That’s life dudes, live with it. Do you think George Clooney or Johnny Depp or Brad Pitt struggle to get people to sleep with them? Well then, face it guys, you’re just NOT THAT ATTRACTIVE.
I would also add that those men who spend hours on end getting the woman to reach an orgasmic state after state expect a bloody medal everytime, with fanfares and fireworks. Everytime. Like they ‘adonis’ everyone’ are doing the woman a big favour. IMHO and experience, these adonis guys will then ‘deprive’ you of said coital orgasm if you don’t give them your undivided attention, adoration and external thanks.
Oh, and re the theory that women want to trap men into marriage – bad news I’m afraid.
It may come as a surprise to most women, but single men are now more likely to want to settle down and start a family, the most comprehensive study of its kind has revealed. In a dramatic gender role reversal, more than half of single men wanted to have children compared to just 46% of women.
The study of 5,200 people found that while more than half of single men aged 21 to 35 wanted kids, only 46% of the women did.
With age the difference becomes even more pronounced – only 16% of childless women aged 35 to 44 wanted kids whereas 27% of the men did.
Across every age group, women want more independence than men in their relationships, the results showed.
Some 77% of women said having their personal space is very important compared to 58% for men.
On top of that 78% of women say the same about having their own interests and hobbies versus 64% for men, and 35% of women say regular nights out with friends are important, compared to 23% of men.
More women than men were prepared to say definitively that they did not want to become parents, the study showed.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1353345/Men-want-married-just-women.html#ixzz1F5X6A3aC
Do you think George Clooney or Johnny Depp or Brad Pitt struggle to get people to sleep with them? Well then, face it guys, you’re just NOT THAT ATTRACTIVE.
Well, teh dudes expect women to be all primped and preened and put loads of effort into remaining ‘attractive’ (in their eyes). Our dudely demi-gawds rock up to aforesaid preen woman, straight from the gym or work or pub, stinking like high heaven, and rock in with a “fancy some tonight luv?”. Yep, wadda catch.
Puts the ‘resistable’ in ‘irresistable’.
A few questions dudes.
1) a male friend of yours is desperately in love with you. It’s not mutual. Do you think resisting his advances is ‘wilful’ and ‘unreasonable’?
2)Your wife seriously ‘lets herself go’ after you’ve got married. You no longer find her attractive. Are you still compelled to have sex with her anyway, since her ardour is undiminished?
3)you have depression following a period of extreme emotional stress, (a bereavement, you lose your job, etc, etc) are prescribed anti depressants and as a result develop impotence (a known side effect). Is your wife justified in having an affair to ‘satisfy her urges’?
It’s remarkable how women are expected to ‘stand by their man’ no matter what, but the slightest refusal to meet male desires is treated as a hanging offence.
No wonder women are less keen than men on marriage.
Lot’s of feminine anger here. I am not surprised, given that this is a place where like-minded women vent their deep-seated negative impressions of men. So many of you are working overly hard to lump me in with the guy who made statements very different from mine. From what I’ve seen here, you all seem capable of greater intellectual honesty than what I’ve seen here. At times, you are resembling the sarcastic, negative and closed-minded men you seem to hold in such low esteem. That in itself is not surprising, given your desire to prove yourselves in a male-dominated world. However, you are in the majority here and don’t really need to prove anything, right? So, why all the macho posturing? I don’t believe I’ve presented myself as a threat to you or anything you stand for. I’ve simply presented a couple of questions about a scenario that is not at ALL bizarre or uncommon (women who dishonestly bait men into marrriage with sex and then withdraw it after marriage). Many of you have altogether ignored the question or tried to corner me with wild claims that I might condone rape if I suggest that a woman should be able to accept questions from her husband about why she suddenly became allergic to PIV sex after marriage. None of you seem to be aware that the situation I have described happens repeatedly all over the world and in different cultures.
I’m guessing that the lack of direct response to my question could be because many of you are unmarried and unfamiliar the dynamics that I have described. You may not even have interactions with many married people, for all I know. That might explain why you think such a common scenario is bizarre. Honestly, this situation is so common in the heterosexual married community that it is practically a cliche.
BTW, no I am not Steven Fry and don’t know the man. I only noticed what he wrote after having already posed my questions and then looked around the blog for other things that have been written. Interesting that someone I don’t even know presented a similar scenario to the women here and received no direct response to his question about this either. Like me, he sure did earn himself a good deal of vitriol, though!
Honestly, I am not offended because I know it is important to make some of you feel empowered and good about yourselves. If that is so, enjoy your posturing behavior.
My wife and I always sleep very soundly wrapped in each others’ arms.
Is that physically possible? Don’t you move around at night, or get a dead arm from the trapped limbs situation?
Yes, it’s possible, Polly. We happen to fit very well together under our great big comforter, either facing each other or spooning. Great feeling.
Polly, you say “My flat answer of ‘no’ is handed down because unwanted sexual intercourse is rape. Which bit of that don’t you understand?”
This accomplishes your apparent goal of appearing appropriately surly toward me as a man, but it still is a huge distortion of what I’ve actually written about here. I am clearly not advocating for a man to force sex on his wife anywhere in what I’ve written. Instead, I am suggesting that a man who has been misled has the right to question his wife about the rather abrupt change in her behavior. Many of the women here seem to relish the opportunity to suggest that if the woman doesn’t want sex, there must be some fault in the man. I’m asking the question: what if the man really isn’t at fault and the woman has deliberately misled him? Does she not have the moral responsibility to be honest about what she has done and seek some sort of remedy for the man she has misled? So many of you seem to find it absolutely unfathomable that a woman could possibly be asked to be accountable for her decision to be dishonest with the man she married. So please stop with the rape analogy – it doesn’t apply here in any way as I am not advocating forcing the woman to do anything here. I am merely asking if the woman shouldn’t on her own take action to correct a horrible situation.
@ Fab libbber: You say “Addressing dudes above in general, you keep missing the point that most women do not orgasm from PIV (and I did not say all, but most). Most don’t even get that much pleasure from PIV, they tolerate it, because they are doing you a favour (they might love you blah blah) and so they grin and bear it.” This is a very misleading statement. It may be true that penetrative sex alone does not cause many women to have an orgasm, however, many men manage to bring a woman to orgasm during PIV sex by touching the clitoris and the region around the vagina until the woman is brought to orgasm. This can be accomplished successfully and comfortably from any number of lovemaking positions. I make my wife’s orgasms the focus of our lovemaking. This can happen quickly or over a lengthy period of time, depending on her mood and sensitivity and the position in which we are enjoying PIV sex. Women who enjoy PIV sex often say they love the feeling of being united with their partner at the same time they are being pleasured. If a man refuses to see pleasuring the woman as an integral part of PIV sex, he is a poor lover indeed.
There is a much bigger dynamic than what your question asks, Carl. Are people responsible for their unconscious motivations that come to light after they have agreed to something that they were not even sure that they have agreed to do? There are alot of romantic assumptions that people hold that do not come to mind until after the honeymoon is over. These assumptions are never encouraged to be discussed before marriage because that would put a damper on the romance. In romance, it is a question of just who mislead who. So the real question should be just what does each person expect the marriage to be? In patriarchy, it is usually that the woman submits to the man. Is that an unconscious assumption of the man? Does she know that? Is is alot bigger question than how you have framed it.
For Gawd’s sake Carl – get over yourself. You are positively frothing and sounding testorical.
Carl, I told you. Your comments are so bloody longwinded and BORING that it brings on brain coma, hence all your iddy biddy points get overlooked to avoid slumping over the keyboard.
Of the women that comment here, some are or were married, with and without kids, some have had many male partners, and some are life long lesbians. And I ain’t tellin’ who’s who.
Anyway, it is you whose honesty is in question really. One minute you are whining on like an MRA about evil women who trap poooor innocent menz into marriage then withhold sex… to you fall asleep in wifey’s arms. So fuck off with your long winded hypotheticals.
Funny, but I have seen plenty of overly long, self-indulgent comments coming from you, Fab. I have felt the need to try clarify things for people who don’t seem to understand (or want to understand) that not all men are evil, self-involved fountains of perversion. If you were so bored, why have you bothered to respond? Perhaps you feel the need to validate your position? Do you ladies ever treat a man with respect and consideration? It would appear that you have no ability to converse with men with anything other than extreme and hateful commentary. The stuff I’m seeing here seems so stereotypical as to be hard to believe. BTW, I am not interested in who has done what with who. That’s plainly none of my business.
If you are unwilling to (or incapable to) discuss topics like this in a reasonable, civil manner, I can accept that. It seems I might have chanced upon a support group for women recovering from bad dealings with men (something altogether more virulent than mainstream feminism). Sorry to have offended you with my visit.
No, you are just full of shit Carl.
I just scrolled up, nearly every one of your comments are an epic.
I have done a few long ones, but you have done many more in number.
And I have also done a few short ones. You, not so much.
Do you want me to do a word count per comment to prove it to you???
Or will you dismount from your little superiority pony?
Fab, I really am amazed at how angry you are. Whatever happened to you, please know I am sorry that it brought you to such a place that you feel the need to attack and prove yourself “right.” If you want to check who is riding the superiority pony, ride by the nearest store window sometime and take a good hard look. There…a short post. Happy?
This accomplishes your apparent goal of appearing appropriately surly toward me as a man, but it still is a huge distortion of what I’ve actually written about here. I am clearly not advocating for a man to force sex on his wife anywhere in what I’ve written
I have no goal of “appearing appropriately surly” towards men Carl. I write what I believe and don’t give a shit what anyone thinks. Your comment reveals your not so hidden agenda.
YOU are advocating for a man to have sex with a woman who clearly doesn’ want to have sex by nagging/emotionally blackmailing/ pressuring her to ‘consent’.
That may NOT be physical force. It may not meet the legal definition of ‘rape’ if ‘consent’ is extracted, however reluctantly . But you are advocating women having sex they DON’T WANT TO HAVE under pressure from men.
And that makes YOU not a very nice person Carl. Not ALL men, because all men don’t think like you.
I’m asking the question: what if the man really isn’t at fault and the woman has deliberately misled him? Does she not have the moral responsibility to be honest about what she has done and seek some sort of remedy for the man she has misled?
She doesn’t NEED to (in this fantasy situation that doesn’t exist anyway). Because HE has a remedy. If he doesn’t want to remain in the marriage, he can GET DIVORCED.
Simples.
The marriage vows Carl, at least in church contain the words ‘for better for worse, for richer for poorer, in sickness and in health’. I personally am against marriage. But the point of those vows is that you are signing up to be with that person NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS.
They do NOT , note contain the words ‘and as much sex as you want’.
When you get married Carl you take a chance. You are signing a legally binding contract with legal implications. If you don’t want to take those chances, DON’T GET MARRIED.
I wouldn’t. No way. I am not rich by any means, but I would not want to risk potentially ending up homeless when the relationship breaks down (which most do) and losing my home which I’ve put a lot of time, money, and effort into making how I want it. I think people who do cohabit at the drop of a hat and end up losing vast amounts of money are a bit stupid.
But it happens to women as well as men Carl. It happened to my neighbour who was living in a nice big 3 bedroom house, met a man, got pregnant, signed half her house over to him (couldn’t believe that bit, she’s obviously a smart woman with a mangerial job, but she was in LOVE). Now living in a 2 bed terrace, with a charge on it.
Moral of this story: Unless you can afford to lose out financially, be wary of getting married/cohabiting.
Carl your point being?
As far as I can ascertain either:
You are a great lover and have regular, mutually pleasurable PIV sex with your wife.
Or
She stopped this sexiness once you got married and that this happens world wide in a female lead conspiracy.
What is your point Carl? And do you think husbands have an entittlement to sex when married/co-habiting?
Many of you have altogether ignored the question or tried to corner me with wild claims that I might condone rape if I suggest that a woman should be able to accept questions from her husband about why she suddenly became allergic to PIV sex after marriage. None of you seem to be aware that the situation I have described happens repeatedly all over the world and in different cultures.
Well you haven’t offered any evidence that it does, that’s why Carl, just an unsupported ‘because I say so’ . On the other hand I’ve shown YOU evidence that more men than women want to get married, which blows your little theory right out of the water.
So I’ll believe you when you prove it, which you have signally failed to do. But even IF it is true, it does not justify women being forced to have sex against their will. It justifies divorce. The remedy Carl, is divorce.
I also note you have not responded to my 3 hypotheticals Carl.
As ever, I will take your lack of response to mean you can’t think of an answer, but just in case, here they are again.
) a male friend of yours is desperately in love with you. It’s not mutual. Do you think resisting his advances is ‘wilful’ and ‘unreasonable’?
2)Your wife seriously ‘lets herself go’ after you’ve got married. You no longer find her attractive. Are you still compelled to have sex with her anyway, since her ardour is undiminished?
3)you have depression following a period of extreme emotional stress, (a bereavement, you lose your job, etc, etc) are prescribed anti depressants and as a result develop impotence (a known side effect). Is your wife justified in having an affair to ‘satisfy her urges’?
The point is this Carl, if your partner doesn’t want sex as much as you do, you have 3 options.
1)leave the relationship
2)just accept it
3)mutually explore the reasons why this is and be prepared to make changes YOURSELF so that they want sex more.
But you are saying men should use option 4)
Pressure, cajole and nag a completely unwilling partner into ‘satisfying’ their sexual needs.
Not technically rape maybe if ‘consent’ is given after psychological pressure. But here’s the question I’ve posed again and again and you’ve dodged again and again.
What kind of person wants to have sex with someone who clearly doesn’t want to have sex with them?
I’m being entirely intellectually honest Carl. I’ve posed a series of questions to you (backed up with evidence unlike you unsupported fantasy scenarios) and you’re avoiding answering them.
I was thinking I should just stop posting here because the male point of view is nothing more than an opportunity for pointless attacks on masculinity and the overall vileness of being male, but some of you will be angry that Polly toned down the din of the rhetoric enough for me to actually comment. Please don’t be too unkind to her.
I do not reject the three options you have listed, Polly. They all make perfect sense. The first two are sort of black and white options for men who love their wives: accept a sexless marriage or leave it – no dialogue required. The third option is to assume that the problem is all the man’s to deal with. Still no dialogue. In a certain number of these relationships, there must be many changes the man could make to improve his chances of making his wife want to have sex with him. Of course, this would probably be most successful if the woman is willing to open up and honestly help the man to see what she would like to see change or improve in order for her to see sex as a desirable thing. If this includes significant change to the man’s behavior or appearance, the man would then have the opportunity to work on those things.
However, I think it seems obvious that at least one more scenario might include the wife admitting that she didn’t exactly present herself honestly to her husband before the marriage. I have spoken to more than a few women who were quite frank with me that sex before marriage was a different thing because they felt they needed to “perform” in order to keep the man’s attention; they believed that if they told their husbands that they felt that many things about sex with a man were distasteful to them that the man would probably leave them for someone else. Because of this very real fear, they felt almost entitled to present a skewed version of themselves to the man up until marriage. These women then seemed to feel they had put in their time as sexual partners and now should be able to use the marriage contract as an opportunity to refuse sex except for the rare times they felt somewhat inclined to participate. I am not saying that the man should browbeat his wife into unwanted sex at this juncture. Rather, I am saying that a woman who does not desire sex for reasons that a man can’t do anything about (at least initially) should finally be honest with her husband and perhaps make an attempt to help him with the situation. This may be as simple as an apology for her dishonesty and fear before the marriage and an assurance that the problem is not all his. Perhaps she can learn to enjoy sex a little more if she can be this open with her husband and share her concerns and fears with him. This could lead to a far greater mutual understanding of each other and a deeper love.
Seems everybody knows that men think of only one thing.
The more interesting question goes to womens’ sense of entitlement in the same matter. I have taken the trouble to test this for myself with each of my longer term partners. Simple matter of not initiating and waiting for the inevitable drama. None of them lasted more than a week before the emotional manipulation began. Not one of them handled the eventual “no” at all well. One, admittedly drunk, got quite violent.
It’s a very good test of a womans’ character and one I highly recommend to all men.
Polly asked: “What kind of person wants to have sex with someone who clearly doesn’t want to have sex with them?”
I think there are many kinds of people who want sex under these circumstances. I am not speaking of men who would simply force themselves on their wives. I am thinking of men who love their wives and want a physical relationship with them that at least resembles what they had before marriage. I believe these men have a right to approach their wives and ask why the situation has changed. What happens after that depends at least partially on the woman’s reaction to the question: will she be honest and open or angry and resentful (even if the man “did everything right” and asked her questions in a respectful and caring manner)?
I believe these men have a right to approach their wives and ask why the situation has changed.
And so do I. Where did I say that I didn’t?
However what YOU asked Carl was this.
At the risk of being attacked for raising an ugly question, I have to wonder if there is ANY point in your minds when a woman has ANY responsibility to her partner to fulfill his sexual desires.
NOT the same thing at all.
If someone isn’t happy in a relationship, for whatever reason, their first course of action should be to try to speak openly to their partner about what is happening.
If one partner doesn’t want sex, however, that does not equate to the other partner then having a ‘responsibility to fulfil their sexual desires’.
You’re trying to move the goalposts Carl and think I won’t notice.
Whoops botched formatting.
I believe these men have a right to approach their wives and ask why the situation has changed.
And so do I. Where did I say that I didn’t?
However what YOU asked Carl was this.
At the risk of being attacked for raising an ugly question, I have to wonder if there is ANY point in your minds when a woman has ANY responsibility to her partner to fulfill his sexual desires.
NOT the same thing at all.
If someone isn’t happy in a relationship, for whatever reason, their first course of action should be to try to speak openly to their partner about what is happening.
If one partner doesn’t want sex, however, that does not equate to the other partner then having a ‘responsibility to fulfil their sexual desires’.
You’re trying to move the goalposts Carl and think I won’t notice.
Polly asked: “What kind of person wants to have sex with someone who clearly doesn’t want to have sex with them?”
I think there are many kinds of people who want sex under these circumstances. I am not speaking of men who would simply force themselves on their wives. I am thinking of men who love their wives and want a physical relationship with them that at least resembles what they had before marriage. I believe these men have a right to approach their wives and ask why the situation has changed. What happens after that depends at least partially on the woman’s reaction to the question: will she be honest and open or angry and resentful (even if the man “did everything right” and asked her questions in a respectful and caring manner)?
Nice bit of avoiding the questions there Carl. Are you a politician.
Let’s reformat the question a bit.
What kind of person WOULD have sex with someone who clearly doesn’t want to have sex with them
Not “what kind of a person is attracted to someone when it isn’t mutual?”
That’s most of us at some point.
No my question to YOU Carl is what kind of a person would as you put it think
a woman has ANY responsibility to her partner to fulfill his sexual desires.
When she clearly doesn’t want sex with him. Not – does he have a right to talk to her about what’s going on, of course he does, but what kind of person would go ahead and actually have sex with someone who CLEARLY didn’t want to have sex with them and was only consenting under pressure.
was thinking I should just stop posting here because the male point of view is nothing more than an opportunity for pointless attacks on masculinity and the overall vileness of being male, but some of you will be angry that Polly toned down the din of the rhetoric enough for me to actually comment. Please don’t be too unkind to her.
Nice try Carl. You and whose army? However you will note that I said this.
And that makes YOU not a very nice person Carl. Not ALL men, because all men don’t think like you.
Seems everybody knows that men think of only one thing.
The more interesting question goes to womens’ sense of entitlement in the same matter. I have taken the trouble to test this for myself with each of my longer term partners. Simple matter of not initiating and waiting for the inevitable drama. None of them lasted more than a week before the emotional manipulation began. Not one of them handled the eventual “no” at all well. One, admittedly drunk, got quite violent.
It’s a very good test of a womans’ character and one I highly recommend to all men.
Gosh Gwallan, you obviously believe in the open honest relationship model then.
Anyway to repeat my earlier question (this is about the fourth time).
What would you advise a man in these situations?
1) a male friend of yours is desperately in love with you. It’s not mutual. Do you think resisting his advances is ‘wilful’ and ‘unreasonable’?
2)Your wife seriously ‘lets herself go’ after you’ve got married. You no longer find her attractive. Are you still compelled to have sex with her anyway, since her ardour is undiminished?
3)you have depression following a period of extreme emotional stress, (a bereavement, you lose your job, etc, etc) are prescribed anti depressants and as a result develop impotence (a known side effect). Is your wife justified in having an affair to ‘satisfy her urges’?
Mr Divine/Steve
You may as well stop trolling my blog now, because as I’ve already pointed out, you’re banned, and it’s permanent.
Oh and by the way, crying about it all over the Internet and posting this rallying call on odious MRA sites:
is not going to win you any favours from me.
In a word (or two): fuck off.
Ladies, thank you for explaining the female POV so well — even if it has fallen on too many (male) deaf ears. I hope no one minds if I interject another female perspective.
First, to the gentleman (and I use that term loosely) who accuses women of acting one way before marriage and another way after marriage, I would only say it’s a two-way street. I have known plenty of women who complain that before marriage, their husband was sweet, thoughtful, considerate and loving both in bed and out… but after marriage, they acted as if now they had put a ring on her finger, they didn’t have to be nice or fair or reasonable. He bought the cow — now he was entitled to all her milk whenever and however he wanted it. Somehow, that wedding ring reduced her to a piece of meat.
When I married my husband, I told him I would never have sex with him… I would only make love to him. And I meant it. And I did. He was one helluva lucky guy. But he sure didn’t recognize that — much less appreciate it. He took it for granted. At some point, I also became a piece of meat for his pleasure, at his discretion — and if I didn’t comply, then he pouted and brooded and gave me the cold shoulder.
And, of course, like so many men, he made it clear to me that “he wasn’t blind” and could lust after other women at will. And yet, somehow he could not understand that I’m not invisible. If another guy dared throw an admiringly glance my way, it was my fault. So somehow, I’m not even allowed to be attractive to anyone else, and if I am I’m somehow to blame… but he can be attracted to other women and I’m supposed to understand that this is just how men are? Somehow, I’m supposed to understand how lucky I am that I get to relieve his sexual tension after he’s been lusting after other women?
Um, NO!
Married or not, making love to someone is a PRIVILEGE to be cherished — not a RIGHT to be demanded.
@Cath: Hope you aren’t thinking that Steve and I are the same people. We’re not, I don’t know him and have never conversed with him or any other guys about this blog. In fact, I’m pretty sure that Steve lives in the U.K. somewhere. Don’t the time of our postings reflect this?
Hi Carl
No, don’t worry, I know you’re not Steve. His comments aren’t getting through onto the thread, but I can still see them. So basically my comment was aimed at an invisible (to you) commenter.
I didn’t mean to appear to ignore your questions, Polly. I think I have already commented a bit too much for many here. But since you’ve asked again, I’ll try to present my thoughts here:
1) a male friend of yours is desperately in love with you. It’s not mutual. Do you think resisting his advances is ‘wilful’ and ‘unreasonable’?
No, I would not think resisting advances from someone I don’t love would be “wilful’ and ‘unreasonable.’ I would try to be kind and explain this. I don’t see any problem with calmly discussing the man’s feelings for me. If he persisted I would perhaps be a little more firm and point out that I am already in a commited relationship and that I don’t fool around. If he still insisted with his advances, I would tell him that he must stop or I would have to end our friendship.
2)Your wife seriously ‘lets herself go’ after you’ve got married. You no longer find her attractive. Are you still compelled to have sex with her anyway, since her ardour is undiminished?
I don’t subscribe to the idea that a person has to be eternally youthful and beautiful to merit love. My wife has changed, as have I. We are now twenty years into our marriage and twenty three into our our relationship. I expected change and have appreciated it. I will have to answer your question as a hypothetical – if I was somehow repulsed my wife’s appearance. I think that I would honestly still feel as though it would be unfair not to try to satisfy her in some way. Now, under these circumstances, I can’t predict how my body would respond. If I couldn’t manage to get excited enough to perform PIV sex for her (if that is what she wanted), I would do my best to please her in other ways. The problem would be that my lack of arousal would be obvious and this would likely be disturbing to her. She would probably at some point ask “What’s wrong?” I would likely try to be honest with her and that would lead to pain for both of us. What happens next would depend on her reaction to my honest explanation of what I am having trouble with.
3)you have depression following a period of extreme emotional stress, (a bereavement, you lose your job, etc, etc) are prescribed anti depressants and as a result develop impotence (a known side effect). Is your wife justified in having an affair to ‘satisfy her urges’?
I don’t adultury is a good answer to an issue such as this. If the woman knows that the man is suffering from a diagnosed mental illness, I would hope that having this knowledge would inform her dealings with the man. Perhaps she could work with him for a period of time to try to let him know that she supports him and see if he doesn’t react with love and appreciation. If the man remains chronically ill for years at a time, I would hope that their relationship would be strong enough to withstand this. Certainly, the woman would have to weigh the relationship against her desires. Her decision would be quite an individual thing. If I was in her position, I would choose the relationship over any sexual considerations. The difference here again is illness – if she is physically unwell, I can’t expect her to do things she can’t do. I wouldn’t want to have sex with a woman who did not want sex because of mental or physical impairment. That is different from someone who never wanted sex to begin with, though.
@Lil: I do not disagree with your points AT ALL. If a guy marries a woman behaving a certain way and then suddenly becomes a disgusting jerk, I wouldn’t blame the woman one bit for not wanting to be with him. He doesn’t deserve the woman’s affection if he is not meeting her needs and behaving like the guy she married. That’s exactly my point! Hopefully, there can be dialogue about this and they can work together to change his behavior. I am sorry you have had this experience and wish you well.
You say “Married or not, making love to someone is a PRIVILEGE to be cherished — not a RIGHT to be demanded.” I agree. However, healthy dialogue if somthing is wrong in the relationship is desirable. A spouse should feel comfortable discussing a lack of sex in a relationship without being made to feel that this is unacceptable coercion.
@Polly: You asked “What kind of person WOULD have sex with someone who clearly doesn’t want to have sex with them?”
Clearly having sex with someone who doesn’t want to have sex with you is wrong and should not happen. However, I have been talking about discussing sexual desires when one partner abruptly changes in her behavior toward the man. This is different from forcing himself upon her. It seems the real gray area appears in how the man discusses his concerns with his wife. I agree that “guilting” her into sex is not appropriate. However, if she married him and presented herself as sexually interested in the husband, she should at least try to explain why she’s changed, no? If not, how can you expect the man not to eventually feel unloved and unsatisfied in the relationship?
Oh and by the way, crying about it all over the Internet and posting this rallying call on odious MRA sites:
ROTFLMAO. Whiney-diviney.
Don’t worry, Carl has the posting ability of ten MRAs. But Polly has him under control, so it’s a one-on-one situation. I don’t bother with reframers.
@ Cath: Thanks for your comment!
If the woman knows that the man is suffering from a diagnosed mental illness, I would hope that having this knowledge would inform her dealings with the man. Perhaps she could work with him for a period of time to try to let him know that she supports him and see if he doesn’t react with love and appreciation. If the man remains chronically ill for years at a time, I would hope that their relationship would be strong enough to withstand this
Creep. You would hope that the relationship would be strong enough to withstand a period of no sex (piv) ‘for YEARS at a time’.
HYPOCRITE
All this nonsense about marriage! As though marriage was actually desirable to any healthy human being! Our culture says that love is the point of marriage. Right, let’s assume you get married and love each other. Then you don’t get to have sex because love is the opposite of genuine authentic lust. That leaves you with three options:
1. You have an affair. This is functionally identical to being single, except that some people will turn you down under the misunderstanding that they are responsible for upholding your legal contract. Eventually your cellmate will find out and you will probably lose significantly in the divorce. Marriage is a net loss.
2. You try to just love your cellmate and ignore the sexual side. This is doomed to failure because love is a shallow and cloying mockery of an authentic human relationship. It is also, thankfully, a disease that even the most sickly of us recovers from eventually. So, even in that ephemeral time where love’s narcissistic solipsism lives, your marriage will eventually slip to 1. or 3. because erotic relationships are millions of times more healthy and rewarding than romantic ones. If, by some miracle, you manage to last until the love fades, then you will rationalize THAT to be the true cause of your failure, divorce the cellmate the first time you relapse with someone else, and start the whole disease again without learning a damn thing.
3. You both actually realize this and dissolve the cell. Your relationship moves to a fraternal or… sororital? Maybe? It’s telling there’s no adjective for that word! Anyway, that. You could also, theoretically move to a purely erotic relationship, or the combination of “friends with benefits,” but your lack of lust is what caused this in the first place. While it’s true that romance stifles your lust to each other, it’s not realistic to assume that you can overcome memories of marriage to see each other as human beings.
Honestly, it’s been a hundred years since Valentine Saint-Point. You think we’d have learned something by now.
It is interesting how Mr. Divine demonstrates his sense of entitlement in regards to PIV, which then replicates with his call for reinforcements in an attempt to adjust the blog-owner’s decision, in regards to ‘banning’ him.
Polly said…
Gosh Gwallan, you obviously believe in the open honest relationship model then.
Why not? Don’t you?
Note that while male consent is rarely considered I do have that right. I merely place responsibility for the initiation of sexual activity upon my partner. I then get the opportunity to see just how they go about it. If done in a negative or critical or manipulative manner the answer is always no. If open, honest and direct I may consent. If anything, with the exception of the violent one, this has strengthened those relationships.
The sarcastic tone of your response suggests you have a problem with this. I find myself wondering why.
@ maggiel101: You wrote: “Creep. You would hope that the relationship would be strong enough to withstand a period of no sex (piv) ‘for YEARS at a time’.
HYPOCRITE”
Actually, this isn’t hypocritical at all. I don’t believe I ever said that I thought the relationship should/must be over if the wife does not consent to sex with her husband. I only asked about the wife’s part in helping to sort things out.
@ Sam: Wow…I don’t know where to start with your comments, so I’ll begin wth your statement that in marriage “you don’t get to have sex because love is the opposite of genuine authentic lust.” I am assuming you have never experienced a healthy marriage. Love most definately is not exclusive of sexual desire (one form of lust). That is a patently false and ridiculous statement. In the same paragraph, you then state that “love is the opposite of genuine authentic lust.” Really? By whose definition? In my book, the opposite of love is hate, or worse, indifference. I don’t think all lust is born of dark emotion and devoid of affection. Most dictionaries define lust as “a strong sexual desire or a craving, appetite, or great desire for another person.” It is not uncommon at all that lust is one infantile form of love: the beginnings of a deeper appreciation for another human being. Of course, I admit that lust can also be a rather deviant, dark emotion born of evil and destructive intent. That is the form of lust that often results in destructive behaviors, such as rape. Which one do you mean?
“Marriage is a net loss.” Only if you can’t love a person. Sad what this says about you, Sam.
“[L]ove is a shallow and cloying mockery of an authentic human relationship.” What exactly is an authentic human relationship in your mind? Even animals are capable of the sort of lust you seem to describe. Perhaps that is closer to your ideal.
” [I]t’s not realistic to assume that you can overcome memories of marriage to see each other as human beings.” It would seem that in your sexual utopia seeing each other as human beings is far from the point. You seem to revel in the idea of treating each other as objects. This is the sort of interaction that never has any sort of shelf life because it is terribly shallow. I guess that is what gets you off.
Carl Martin: God, must I do this? Did you think I namedropped simply out of vanity? Alright, if you are unable to google, then I shall provide you with the pertinent quote:
“Christian morality alone, following on from pagan morality, was fatally drawn to consider lust as a weakness. Out of the healthy joy which is the flowering of the flesh in all its power it has made something shameful and to be hidden, a vice to be denied. It has covered it with hypocrisy, and this has made a sin of it.
We must stop despising Desire, this attraction at once delicate and brutal between two bodies, of whatever sex, two bodies that want each other, striving for unity. We must stop despising Desire, disguising it in the pitiful clothes of old and sterile sentimentality.
It is not lust that disunites, dissolves and annihilates. It is rather the mesmerizing complications of sentimentality, artificial jealousies, words that inebriate and deceive, the rhetoric of parting and eternal fidelities, literary nostalgia—all the histrionics of love.
We must get rid of all the ill-omened debris of romanticism, counting daisy petals, moonlight duets, heavy endearments, false hypocritical modesty. When beings are drawn together by a physical attraction, let them—instead of talking only of the fragility of their hearts—dare to express their desires, the inclinations of their bodies, and to anticipate the possibilities of joy and disappointment in their future carnal union.
Physical modesty, which varies according to time and place, has only the ephemeral value of a social virtue.
We must face up to lust in full consciousness. We must make of it what a sophisticated and intelligent being makes of himself and of his life; we must make lust into a work of art. To allege unwariness or bewilderment in order to explain an act of love is hypocrisy, weakness and stupidity.
We should desire a body consciously, like any other thing.
Love at first sight, passion or failure to think, must not prompt us to be constantly giving ourselves, nor to take beings, as we are usually inclined to do so due to our inability to see into the future. We must choose intelligently. Directed by our intuition and will, we should compare the feelings and desires of the two partners and avoid uniting and satisfying any that are unable to complement and exalt each other.
Equally consciously and with the same guiding will, the joys of this coupling should lead to the climax, should develop its full potential, and should permit to flower all the seeds sown by the merging of two bodies. Lust should be made into a work of art, formed like every work of art, both instinctively and consciously.
We must strip lust of all the sentimental veils that disfigure it. These veils were thrown over it out of mere cowardice, because smug sentimentality is so satisfying. Sentimentality is comfortable and therefore demeaning.
In one who is young and healthy, when lust clashes with sentimentality, lust is victorious. Sentiment is a creature of fashion, lust is eternal.”
This should not be a revelation. I should not have to explain it. That was written in 1913. When will we join the 20th century?
Sam: Am I to believe that you subscribe to the ramblings of an early 20th century Futurist who believed (among other similarly absurd things) that “the truly strong and enduring nations are those the boundary of whose country approximates a square”? I am assuming this is your idea of humor.
Ramblings! Oh my, how decadent we are. Look at that text, written clear as day, and compare it to any politician, any theorist of today, for clarity and precision. YOU live in obscurantism beyond the wildest dream of Hegel, and WE are the ones “rambling!”
Well, let me be clear to you then: In addition to Ms. Saint-Point’s knowledge, love is also solipsistic in it’s conception (this is why you call your spouse, the ultimate goal of love, “my better half”) and thus profoundly narcissistic. By denying the existence of the other person (and do not deny the common nature of this. The entire post and thread are its testament) your are attempting to avoid interacting with another human being. Should anyone attempt to correct you, you will use the fact that your conception of love is an equivocation and conflation of fraternity/sorority and sterilized lust and claim that “you need love to have a meaningful relationship with your partner!” in one breath and then dismiss love related violence with the other (“Oh, well they were obsessed with controlling each other. That’s not love!” As though a felling founded on solipsism could be anything but controlling or obsessive!)
Because you refuse to confront the utter alien nature of another human being, because your entire life is predicated on erasing uncertainty from your universe; because of all of this, your relationships and those of people like you will be miserable. And they will keep failing, until you realize that love is literally nonsense, until you realize that it is the shallowest form of relationship, until you realize that you will need to structure your relationship on friendship, lust, or both, until you realize that uncertainty and failure are the natural features of human interaction to be celebrated and not symptoms of pathology; and, most importantly, until you realize that all healthy relationships will inevitably end. Any other is projection.
There, that is clear as crystal with no poetics to confuse you with their “rambling”. Have I been understood?
I have a similar problem with my wife whom I married five years ago. At first we had really great sex. The problem started with her first childbirth (four years ago), and of course I understood that she did not wish sex as long as she was awfully tired and sleepless because of our baby. Even before that period, I definitely never ever pressured her to have sex if she was not in the mood, nor did I pester her with requests to perform oral sex on me (which she dislikes). I easily accepted all this. However, in later years she adopted the position that she would not have sex with me unless I get a better job that would provide all of us (including her teenager son from her first marriage) with a decent living and a flat of our own, on the condition that she would not have to return to work. While I did do various odd jobs besides my regular teaching position, my income was not sufficient to provide as much material comfort as she expected. She also took offense at that while I willingly washed our clothes, did the cleaning and washing-up, etc., I cannot cook. Her response has been, apart from regularly calling me a loser in front of the kids, to withhold sex. Now she says she simply does not want to have it with someone whom she cannot respect. She claims to have lost her libido, and so did I; cheating on one’s spouse is not her style or mine, anyway. I wonder how her attitude might be seen and explained from a female perspective, and if there is something I could do to repair our marriage. Of course, I try to get a job commensurate to her requirements, but you may understand that this is not wholly up to me.
Are the dudes just copy/pasting ‘problems’ now?
Well, I had not received an answer on the previous blog before it went extinct, and since the problem, predictably, has not been solved since then, I decided to raise the issue a second time. It is quite real and troubling for me, so please don’t put it in quotation marks. I do not miss sex as a physical need as much as I feel emotionally affected by this linkage between the most private aspect of our relationship and the outcome of my job applications.
Asking about “rights” is the wrong question that leads to miserable mediocrity-at best. All of us has infinite rights, that if exercised, would lead to misery for all. As I mention in my post: Feminism makes women unhappy?, research shows that a primary concern about “rights” is selfish leads to unhappiness.
Yes, wives have the legal “right” to refuse sex, among numerous other rights. A husband also has the legal “rights” to not ever come home from work, to look at porn and have affairs and mistresses, to keep his own financial earnings, to divorce or even leave on any whim at any time, and to hire the best attorneys to fight to keep his money and his kids.
Exercising those rights, though, leads to unhappiness and misery. The question is not about rights–but about what are the best choices.
Here are some better questions: “Is a marriage more satisfying and happy if the partners regularly have sexual relations?” “Wives–are you more happy when your husband is happy?” “What ingredients make for the best and happiest marriages–always worrying about yourself and what you need, or concern for your partner and their goals and desires?”
Dear Sam: What I “understand” is that you are hopelessly devoted to completely unoriginal thought masquerading as deep philosophic insight. You are a slave to the mental masturbation of slobbering old men of more than a century ago who sought out pseudo intellectual panacea for their own emotional impotence. Do you not know that most of the Futurists whom you hold in such high regard later became avowed fascists? This is because they could not recognize the solipism of their own narrow conceptions of the universe. If they (and you, by unfortunate extension) had stopped to consider that loveless, bestial sexuality is devoid of anything but oft-violent physical abuse, perhaps they (and you) could have seen the horrific sum of their misguided thinking. You propose a system that embraces entropy and mutual destruction of self. I would argue that this is a pointless and abstract exercise in nihilism. I am not into that, no matter how much you want me to believe in that bankrupt old saw.
@ Katze: I am sorry to read again of your situation. If you read many of my posts above and some of the angry responses I have received, you know that we are not altogether welcome here. I think you are looking for a woman’s honest perspective on your issues because you are aware that you have hit a wall in trying to work things out on your own. What I have gleaned thus far from this thread is that many of the women here have very little sympathy, patience or concern for men who are trying to sort out significant relationship efforts such as yours. The feminist position here seems to be that many men can’t accept that their problems with their wives are usually of their own making; they also seem to want men to stay away and figure out their problems on their own. I feel that you were brave to come here and raise your issue and I think these ladies could provide valuable insight if they wished to do so. However, if they don’t, please don’t stop seeking answers to your issues. From what you’ve said (and the effort you’ve made in coming here looking for ideas), I’d say your intentions seem good and caring. Have you and your wife sought counseling? If your wife would accept the idea of discussing your issues as a couple with a counselor, perhaps some doors of mutual understanding could be opened.
To the ladies who post here: would it be so bad to try to help this guy out? I know you aren’t here at the service of men to help them with their relationships, but I believe your perspectives could be valuable and helpful here.
@ Strong Man: You raise some rather prickly questions here. What you are suggesting appears to be the polar opposite of what Sam has been trying to sell. You seem to want each partner in a couple to live for the pleasure and happiness of the other partner. Does that really result in maximal hapiness, as you suggest? Or does it encourage each partner to lose the sense of self in the relationship? It seems to me that the romantic ideal you advance here would only work if both partners perfectly meet each others’ needs and desires. Any imbalance would likely cause strife at some point. Perhaps human nature demands that we attempt what you describe and then faithfully act to correct our own failings when we fall short of these ideals? Still, it seems that many relationships will find rocky ground because of the intrusions of the ego. Maybe we need to see that the most important aspect of human relationships is the ability to communicate clearly – to speak openly and honestly about our issues and work together to correct whatever issues may arise. However, once again, the biggest problem with this is the potential inability of the self to recognize the intrusions of the ego in finding common ground. I believe it is worthwhile to take the chance that communication may fail – and then try again.
Dear Carl Martin:
Thanks a lot for your helpfulness! I agree that counseling would be most useful, but while I am willing to participate, my wife is opposed to the idea on the following grounds: (1) this is a private matter that should not be discussed with outsiders, and (2) it is entirely my fault, and hence I should solve it. Thus we cannot resort to this method for the time being. On my part, I readily accept that she had a genuine reason to be dissatisfied with our financial situation; however, I do not think that the solution she proposed and finally achieved (that I should find a better paid job abroad whose income would be sufficient to support four persons, and stay there alone, far from her and the children) is satisfactory. It may be satisfactory for her, but not for the children (who miss me) or for me.
Katze: Glad anything I had to say was useful. I am troubled by the idea that your wife is completely unwilling to work with a third party to try to resolve your differences. Given the verbal abuse you have mentioned receiving from her and her refusal to work with you in any way on your relationship, perhaps it is time to ask her what role she might be able to play in helping with your family’s finances. Depending on your children’s ages, maybe she can find reasonable daycare while she looks for work and the begins working to help support the family. This experience may help her to understand your challenges in finding work that would support her desired living standard. Based on what you’ve written, I am guessing that suggesting that she also work to support the family will be met with scorn and ridicule. If so, you could try to help her to see that her attacks on you are tearing down your sense of self and are making it even harder for you to find work. You may also need to discuss her expectations with her: are her ideas of desirable living standards reasonable or not? If they are not, you may need to present her with the truth and then ask her if she can live with that and be happy. If you earn more scorn and ridicule with this approach, you may need to explain that the future of your relationship requires an outside, unbiased mediator (a counselor). Without this, you are left with at least two choices: 1) accept the situation as it is and live devoid of personal fullfillment with your partner; or 2) leave the relationship. Obviously the latter choice is completely undesirable because you love your wife and want to keep your family together. However, your own happiness depends on some sort of change taking place. The question is what sort of change is necessary. I wish you well with this.
Perfect logic. Your guesses were all correct; these issues were raised long ago, and her responses were basically what you expected. Her expectations are realistic in the sense that with a great deal of good luck and with a lot of skillful effort (I readily admit that I should know more about potential opportunities), I might be able to find a position that will support all of us, provided that we continue living separately and I reduce my own expenses to the basics to be able to pay two flat rents. However, this would be actually a divorce anyway. I don’t want to initiate a formal divorce, because this would greatly hurt the children, but in practice it is already a divorce. I don’t really know how to have more access to the children, who are now thousands of kilometers away, because of course I cannot force my wife to come here if she does not want, and if I did, all conflict would start anew.
Katze: If you have been compelled to work thousands of kilometers away from home by a person who will not be reasoned with, I think you must ask yourself how long you can live this way. If the answer is not long, perhaps you should cut your losses, head home and confront this issue head on. If your wife won’t hear of dialogue or compromise, you may need to force the issue by telling her that divorce may be necessary. If she pushes this to the end, you would at least stand a chance of obtaining visitation rights. That is more than you have now. You would also have a chance at a healthier relationship with a woman who would treat you with respect and love.
On the basis of our earlier conversations, my impression is that she does not want to initiate divorce, because this would be financially less advantageous to her than the current situation (50% of my income, rather than 65-80-95%, depending on where I lived), and the children would not agree. Instead, she would be more likely to accept if I initiated it, because she would have custody of the children anyway (it would be actually quite cruel to take away the little one from her mother), but I would appear in the role of the selfish one in front of the children. The children definitely do not want us to separate, and if I re-married after a divorce, they would not forgive me easily, if at all. Besides, I doubt if a more or less “normal” woman would want to marry a person who got divorced under such circumstances, since the reputation of having been unable to financially support one’s wife and children is by no means attractive.
Hi, found your blog from a link from another I think. Love this post and no, not convinced by any of those commenters’ arguments heh.
I would say though, from my own experiences that I’m really feeling that this societal notion of “you must be monogamous or else you’re some kind of amoral pervert” is wrong. I’m not saying people should be given the moral green light to cheat (i.e. be with someone else behind their partner’s back, and risking their partner’s sexual health and emotional well being), but folks should be more free to consider what relationship models suit them instead of the default “one mate for life” model we have rammed down our throats constantly, and then hopefully find (an)other(s) who feel the same :).
Katze: is your wife unable to help you support your family financially because she is having to look after your children full time, physically or mentally unable to work etc., or does she just not want to work? I’d say dtmfa if the latter and if the former then finding some way for you to both talk about your feelings regarding the situation and potential solutions, without having to resort to verbal abuse would be ideal.
@ Katze: I really admire your candidness. It would appear that the women who often visit this blog and comment have elected to avoid this thread. As I said, I think they’d rather we’d just go away and stop “invading” their space. I’ve tried to indicate that I am looking for their perspectives on the subjects we are discussing, but many here seem convinced I have some sort of nefarious intent. It would be helpful to have their thoughts on your situation – assuming that those who feel the need to simply be cruel might refrain from commentary.
It sounds like your wife and children are all well aware that your relationship with your wife is at something of a crossroads. The fact that you indicate that your children have strong feelings about this seems to indicate that you and/or your wife have discussed the possibility of separation or divorce with them. Much as you love your children, you should stop to think about all of this from a more objective position. I know this would be very hard, but it is important if you are to come up with a choice that makes the best sense in the long run.
I grew up in a family situation where my father and mother were in a sexless, unhappy marriage for decades because they believed it was best to do this for the sake of their children (and perhaps because my father really didn’t want to abandon my mentally ill mother). I rarely went to bed without hearing them arguing bitterly in the room right beneath my bedroom. This was a hard way to view the many conditions of marriage. You must consider what sort of impressions all of this may be leaving on your children and what price you are paying to hold all of this together. Is this a situation that can’t be remedied? If so, even if the children don’t like it now, could it be that future health and happiness depends on not persisting with the current situation? Children are often too young to understand all that parents are going through when a relationship goes bad. Perhaps they should not be dragged through interminable sadness because neither parent finds it convenient to admit that in reality, the marriage is broken and beyond repair. These are your burdens to bear as parents – not your kids.
As to what might happen should you divorce, I think many people would tell you that children are more resiliant than most adults understand. It will hurt them a great deal, but they will come to understand (if they don’t already) why mom and dad couldn’t stay together. If you choose to marry again, that is your right as a human being. Your children may be angry at first, but you are showing them that life can go on with happiness after bad things happen. You are teaching them that people who don’t love each other (or even like each other) don’t have to perpetuate their mutual unhappiness and share it with their children. Divorce carries many downsides, too, I know. I think you have to look at your life now and ten -twenty years from now and decide what path is truly sustainable and least destructive for all involved. Your wife is leaving this choice in your hands, seemingly knowing what may well happen. Someone must have the courage to lead and bring about positive change.
@C: If you want to be able to have multiple partners in a relationship, it stands to reason that you must find a partner that believes the same thing. Many people really don’t want it both ways, though. That’s the real reason why many prefer to cheat. The ego can’t often withstand the “competition.”
Oh FFS. Has this thread turned into the “Dear Carl, MRA relationship self help” thread?
You know what dudes, you could take you chatter over to some MRA place to talk among yourselves. You don’t bother listening to females anyway (which I would suggest is one reason why your other half has gone off PIV with you).
The other reason would be that you have NO RESPECT for women and other people’s boundaries. Particularly Carl. A newbie to CATH’s blog, you hijack a thread as your own personal forum. Cath might be too polite to tell you just how rude you have been, but I am not so polite.
Carl, get your own fucking blog and piss off.
Fab: Nice to hear from you again. You know, I was not familiar with the what an MRA was until you and others began to tar me with that term. I assure you, I am not part of any movement to advance men’s causes. As to your comment that I and other men have no respect for women, I don’t think you have much to go on where I am concerned, even with all I’ve written here. The simple fact that I’ve attempted to engage women such as yourself in a discussion of the issue at the center of this thread does not indicate I have no respect for women or for boundaries. This thread is supposed to be about the male point of view on the given topic. In a sense, it’s a bit like the men who’ve posted here have been given the chance to interact with women who would not normally converse with us. I admit that I’ve written too much here. It’s time for me to stop. I apologize for offending you and others. All good wishes.
@Cath:Thanks for not banning me. I meant no harm.
My sex drive is virtually zero yet I willingly allow my husband to have sex with me on a weekly basis. After our third child I became less and less interested in sex and withdrew my consent. My husband was very understanding but after a year or so I noticed that he was becoming a much more aggressive person (verbally) towards me and the children, and was unhappy about everything. We talked and it came out that he really wanted to have sex with me and felt frustrated. He’s a very decent man and wouldn’t cheat on me.
I thought about it and realised that my prime responsibility was to my children, and our family life was suffering as a result of our lack of sex. I told him he could have sex with me once a week. I have to lubricate myself and I never really enjoy it but it isn’t an ordeal. Its nowhere near as bad as going to the dentist and its over within 15 minutes.
The long and short of it is that my husband is far more easier to live with. He is much more patient with the kids and our family life is greatly improved.
We have no problems giving blood, bone marrow and kidneys to our loved ones so why should our sexual parts be any different? And if I have consented to give blood and a person takes that blood when needed then there should be no stigma on that person. Why should it be any different with sex?
The greater good is what is important and in my case the greater good results in my husband and my children being much happier. People will children understand this as they often sacrifice part of their own desires and wants to promote the happiness of their children.
yet I willingly allow my husband to have sex with me on a weekly basis
Well, it is not really “sex” by definition, even though you have ‘consented’. What you have consented to is to be used as a masturbatory device by your husband. You tolerate it, you don’t enjoy it, and you lube yourself up like any other masturbatory device. You have agreed that he can use your body in this manner.
I have to echo Polly’s earlier point: What sort of person wants to have sex with someone who is unwilling?
Given free choice, you would not willingly participate. Submission is not the same as willingness (or full consensual participation).
We have no problems giving blood, bone marrow and kidneys to our loved ones so why should our sexual parts be any different?
Comparing life-threatening conditions with non-life-threatening ones? He will not die without sex, or masturbating into a female body.
but after a year or so I noticed that he was becoming a much more aggressive person (verbally) towards me and the children, and was unhappy about everything
That is actually emotional blackmail. The fact that he would take it out, verbally or otherwise, on to the children is extremely worrying, and alludes to his character as an abuser. Yes, that is right, an abuser. So again you have to ask yourself what sort of person (that you are married to) would take out not getting his own way, onto other people (the children) who have no connection with the source of that frustration.
On a more simplistic level, the message you are teaching your children is to submit to bullies. Is that seriously the type of life lesson you want to teach them?
The long and short of it is that my husband is far more easier to live with. He is much more patient with the kids and our family life is greatly improved.
Congratulations. You have been successfully trained like the family pet, using a punishment/reward system.
Now, the thing of it is, getting back to his personality of taking out his frustrations onto those not responsible for those problems – what happens if something else in his life goes wrong (like losing his job), a problem you cannot fix, have no control over. Analysis of your domestic history indicates that he will take it out on you and the kids. Think about it. How on earth do you think domestic violence situations develop over time? Yeah, it starts off with smaller stuff, manipulation, sulking, tantrums to get his way. That has proved successful, so he will employ that successful strategy over and over again, because it works. Taking out his frustrations out on innocent targets is also proven in his history.
And finally, it is clear that he actually regards you as his own domestic prostitute, not an equal, not a wife, not a partner. Your payment is his niceness. Withdraw your prostitution services, and he withdraws payment.
Hopefully you do not have any daughters. Because that is one hell of a lesson about marriage that you are teaching them, to ‘submit’ to ‘sex’. Also, that they have have the equivalent personhood of a blow-up doll.
I hope the men who have commented on this have read M Walker’s comment and are now hanging their dicks in shame.
M. Walker is a MRA troll. Oh did I just repeat myself? Soreeee. This is an MRAs idea of entitlement, his version of her not wanting sex with him ad nauseam … oh did I just repeat myself again….?
Why we prefer membership only threads: This toddler Carl shows up and we all turn toward it and say “what doz my widdo boy want?”
The savvy mother tells little Carl she’s leaving and walks out the door. He can stand there hanging onto his willy and screaming until he explodes.
Come on Cath, me ole china..you slap a ban on me and yet you let in loony opinions like that from FAB LIBBER
“Sex, as in penetrative sex, is only “necessary” in the production of children. Outside that framework, it is a hobby. Whilst it might be ‘nice’ for your partner to share your hobby, it is not any kind of duty to participate in your partner’s hobby. Mr Scrapbook does not participate in “her hobby”.”
I dont know about Ms LIBBER but the last time I went for a swim it wasn’t a biological pull. I am not a fish.
Consider yourself honoured that Cath lets you out of your little box Wammiie. If it were me, I would have sealed the box with packing tape so your whining would never again see the light of day. Go off an sulk with your buddy MrD.
Nice try at de-contexualising, although not a terribly imaginative MRA troll tactic.
Fab Libber, maybe my husband is emotionally blackmailing me for sex but are we not all guilty of blackmailing each other for the things we want? Is any type of emotional blackmail any greater or lesser than any other? When I say to my children, “Mummy will not be very happy if you did that” am I not trying to blackmail them into doing stuff by refering to my own emotions?
In fact Fab Libber you are trying to emotionally blackmail me by misrepresenting what I said in order to satisfy your own emotional needs. I said “We had sex”, while you said, “It is not sex … my husband is using me as a masturbatory device”. Your words are a misrepresentation of mine and you have done this in an attempt to manipulate my emotions to satisfy your own needs. Your words are negatively charged for your purpose, to prove yourself right on this forum. But they are a form of deception.
Like me make this very clear to you, I have sex with my husband. Got that? I have sex with my husband. Got that..my husband is not masturbating on me. I willingly have sex with my husband. Got that? Willingly. I have consented and it is of my own free will. I have a choice on this matter. Either I have it or I don’t. I understand the consequences of my choice. I don’t need someone like you moralising me on my choices and telling me if I had free choice. I have free choice. Got that? What do you know of bringing up three children? Probably nothing. You have all your ideas on this matter from a book.
And who the hell are you to suggest that there is something wrong with my husband for wanting to have sex with me, and having sex with me? He’s a decent man. Got that? A very decent man and I’m lucky to have him by my side helping me with my children. I and my children need him.
Your attitude is one of a conservative moralising prig who scoops to misrepresentation, devious innuedo and nasty mockery to emotionally blackmail others to satisy her own selfious needs. Got that?
Dear Carl:
thanks a lot for your helpfulness! We did not actually discuss the divorce option with the children in the sense of consulting them on the matter, but about a year ago, my wife openly told her son (she probably did not want to hurt the feelings of the little one so directly, though on other occasions she quite often told her that I was a bad person, much to the kid’s dismay) that I was being kicked out for good. Her son definitely disagreed with her decision, and she eventually changed her mind, albeit for unrelated reasons. On my part, I have refrained from telling the children bad things about their mother, not the least because it is clear that they love her and she loves them, and thus it would be wrong to spoil that.
Concerning the issue of her opinion about working, the situation is as follows: When I met her, she worked in a factory under rather bad conditions and for a low wage, and so it was obvious to me that this should not continue. Therefore I advised her to get some higher education and learn some computer science so as to be able to get a better job. She did, and I paid her study fee throughout her studies, but when she became pregnant, she could not effectively continue them (she completed the college, but her actual knowledge is not really sufficient for working in that profession). She did not particularly mind it, for even before her pregnancy, she had been more interested in teaching me household skills (in which I was admittedly weak) than in studying. In essence, she concluded afterwards that her place is at home, and a husband must be able to provide sufficient financial support to the four of us.
Consent equals:
Fully informed choice, non-coerced choice, full honesty/disclosure, no disparity of rank/age/position
Consent does not equal:
Agreements obtained by manipulation, coercion, lying, threats, or unspoken threats/bad behaviour for non-compliance, blackmail (emotional or otherwise), financial transactions, drugging, or disparity of rank/position/age
Going by what you said in that one comment (and that was all I had to go on) your situation/agreement with your husband whilst sort of covering most of ‘consent’, when viewed with what ‘consent’ is not, fits more completely there. Re-read those definitions, let them sink in.
Your description of lubing-up before ‘sex’ is quite telling. Lack of vaginal lubrication is caused by one of two things, either a hormone imbalance (and some post-menopausal women are subject to it) or psychological reasons (meaning your brain does not want to do it). Therefore, you have a problem, and your first step should actually be getting your hormone levels checked, you could even be peri-menopausal, for an early menopause. The fact that this also occurred after the last child could mean your hormone balance did not return properly. However, when we cover the psychological reasons, these actually can include not wanting to get pregnant again (which is common with women who felt they had enough children already), or lack of sexual desire for the partner (usually caused, in women, by male partners being so damn self-centred and obsessed with his own orgasm and pleasure, that it becomes a chore to ‘supply sex’). Really common. If I was to take a guess, I would guess that it is a subconscious desire on your part not to have any more children. In that case, encourage your so-called ‘nice husband’ to get the snip (and freeze some tadpoles if you think you as a couple will change your mind).
If the underlying reasons, either physical or psychological are not addressed, then long term your situation will lead to resentment on your part. What you are doing now is not addressing the causes, but merely treating symptoms.
Another point from your original post, is that the phrasing of your having to use lube in order to ‘have sex’ with your husband is indicative of a martyr complex, that you are making these sacrifices ‘for your family’.
Truly consensual sex is not ‘a sacrifice’, is not ‘a chore’, and requires the active participation of both (or all??) parties involved, free from coercion or manipulation or deceit. If it does not meet this criteria, then it is either rape or masturbation with another person.
Although I do not want to derail the thread by going into the upbringing of children, the subject of ’emotional blackmail’ still holds for relationships between partners, or parent/child. It is not an acceptable method of negotiating behaviour from another person, and it is completely dishonest. So yeah, I will cop the ‘moral’ label you throw at me for not approving of dishonesty.
Children actually respond better to an honest exchange, (delivery and language determined by age group/maturity) than by emotional blackmail, begging, threats. Children actually flock to me like some sort of pied piper, because I deal with them honestly, and basically like short people who need some guidance in the right direction. “Mommy won’t be happy if you…” is not good parenting. “Please do not do that because (either x will happen from your actions) or this is not acceptable behaviour because …”. Not begging, not pleading, not emotional blackmail.
Emotional blackmail has no part in adult intimate relationships, it shows that the party using it on the other party is immature (&/or manipulative). Two-year-olds throw tantrums to get their own way. Manipulative behaviour that manifests itself into abusiveness (verbal or physical) means that person is a bully and an abuser. Hence, I really do not believe that your husband is such a nice guy. Take your blinkers off.
Trying to label me conservative and ‘moral’ as a way to make me see that you have made mature choices is absolute crap, and I don’t fall for the manipulation. If you actually knew the details of my past (which I will not share online) calling me ‘conservative’ is a bit of a joke. I am only ‘moral’ in the regards of expecting honest, mature dealings with people. So sue me.
The next two steps that you are to take are to make an appointment with an endocrinologist and to meditate on the issue of whether you want more children or not. Do not bother trying to reply with further justifications and excuses. Or how damn good you think your husband is. On that last point, I will not change my mind, such manipulation tactics are inexcusable.
Dear Libber:
I wonder if you could pay some attention to my case as well, since, being a woman, you might have a different perspective and explanation. I do agree with the point of pressing an unwilling partner to have sex with me would be wrong. I definitely did not react aggressively when she said no to sex, and it would be even more unthinkable for me to mistreat the children out of frustration. Since the children love me, and their love gives me the little happiness that has remained in my private life, it would be downright insane to make them suffer because of a wholly different problem. I kept telling my wife that I still loved and desired her, but accepted the principle that sex may happen only if she initiates it (which occurred generally once a month), because pestering her incessantly would be counterproductive. It would be a misreading of the situation to say that I simply need a female body for masturbation, because now, when I am far from her, I feel practically zero sex drive. I feel it only when I am physically close to her, because I remember that this used to be one of the most harmonious and succesful aspects of our life together in which she was genuinely satisfied with me (as opposed to my lacking skills in cooking and finding a top job). I do miss that a former source of happiness is now absent from our life.
“We have no problems giving blood, bone marrow and kidneys to our loved ones so why should our sexual parts be any different? And if I have consented to give blood and a person takes that blood when needed then there should be no stigma on that person. Why should it be any different with sex?”
Do you realise you just likened your husband to a vampire, sucking the life out of you when he uses your body for sex, with that analogy M. Walker? Andrea Dworkin has some similar thoughts in her book Intercourse. You might like to read it. There is a chapter here: http://www.nostatusquo.com/ACLU/dworkin/IntercourseI.html
Two things – would you give your kidneys, blood etc to a family member because it would give them an orgasm, because you seem to arguing orgasming in a body is on a par with life and death, secondly why does your husband need to penetrate your body the way a person might need a blood transfusion? I don’t think you’ve really thought this through.
Also before you accuse FabLibber of misrepresenting you, why not reread what you said? You didn’t say “We had sex”, what you said was “My sex drive is virtually zero yet I willingly allow my husband to have sex with me on a weekly basis” You definitely portray him as using your body with no input or desire from you.
Who are you lying to – us or yourself? I’d say it was yourself.
Katze. I have scrolled back through some of your previous posts, but not all, and gather you are the one where the wife insisted you get a better job and some suggestion of working away from home at a higher income job. There was a mention of separation at one point? I will admit because I did not go back through all the posts, I may have missed some key points. I did ignore any replies from Dear Carl. The dude puts me to sleep.
You maintained not to say anything bad about her to the kids, and very commendable. You get points.
(Due to the mention of the previous separation) you may have to come to the point of acceptance that the relationship is over or damaged beyond compare. If that is the case, then I would recommend moving out, getting a place nearby and maintaining regular contact with the children, and make an amicable separation. However, the relationship may or may not be completely dead-in-the-water, only the relevant parties concerned can make that decision. Just advising you that you should mentally prepare yourself for the irreparable case if it is.
Whilst you have (your) ultimate end goal as sexual intimacy as being a factor in the ongoing relationship, it probably makes working on all the other issues that need fixing more difficult. Because you will subconsiously sabotage some of the non-sexual issues by body language, expectation, whatever. Women are generally fairly perceptive on the unspoken communication, and you are probably sending out signals of your ultimate intentions/goals/conditions. So in order to work on the other relationship issues, you need to get sexual expectation right out of your head, and also be fully prepared that it might not ever happen.
From the “get a better job” thing, the root may not be fully monetary, it may be a sense that you are not pulling your weight in the relationship by doing your 50% (or whatever) of the housework and childcare. Trust me, having a uterus does not make housework fun or fulfilling. Even if you work outside the home, and she inside, help with housework (without expectation for anything in return) would make you a better partner in her eyes. The ‘working away from home’ part is probably because she does not want sex AT ALL with you at the moment, wants the other relationship stuff fixed, and then and only then, *might* she be in the mood for it.
So, stopped being so focused on the missing sexual element, and look at all the other elements. It is possible to show a person that you love and care for them without sex (an example is how you show love for children, being interested in their interests, doing things for them, doing things WITHOUT expecting something in return). Actually, this is the downfall of most males, that to do anything, they expect stuff in return (and particularly sex).
And all of this change of behaviour and mindset will not happen overnight, either from you or her, it will take a long long time. So you also have to be patient, and get the cost/benefit ratio out of your head every time it creeps back in, because it will. It is also not ‘a mission’ with a definitive timescale, it is an ongoing project, so no slipping back into old ways if things do improve.
You have also damaged my reputation as a hairy-legged man-hater, so I will have to correct that shortly. Luckily for me, Cath has plenty of male eejits with entitlement issues on her blog, so my rep will soon be recovered.
Also before you accuse FabLibber of misrepresenting you, why not reread what you said? You didn’t say “We had sex”, what you said was “My sex drive is virtually zero yet I willingly allow my husband to have sex with me on a weekly basis”
Yes definitely Sarah. Peeps just do not realise some of the clues they give away with phrasing and context. Actually, these ‘tells’ are what give me the clues for direction. In subsequent postings, it is more about repetition, denial, and reaction. If there was a misunderstanding, a subsequent posting will clarify the misunderstanding without adding the denial. But, I should not reveal all my magic powers, which reside in my FABulousness.
Ah, being trapped in an abusive, vampiric relationship. Been there, done that, filed the restraining order.
I never defended my “vampire” on the internet, though. And whenever I did in real life, it was to keep him from killing me (and the person to whom I’d confessed). I always knew he was sucking the life out of me. Perhaps this woman knows too. Hence all the denial and insistence. She ISN’T defending Nigel — she’s defending herself.
(By the way — after a year of “consenting”/submitting to letting him fuck me, I can no longer feel my vulva or vagina during partnered sex. Not even with another woman. I either feel completely numb, or I totally dissociate. It wasn’t even like that after my “forcible rapes.” Just something to keep in mind.)
FabLibber: Firstly you try to moralise me now you are trying to educate me with regurgiated textbook garbage definitions. Before I became a stay at home mum I studied law and worked for nearly 8 years in a legal practice. So I am well aware what ‘consent’ means and your airy fairy definitions that you supplied clearly illustrates the notion that a little education is a dangerous thing. It applies in your case.
What are you? Some social worker with a feminist studies/psychology degree from a third rate university? Giving definitions like that makes you appear like a twelve year old who thinks they know everything. You’d be ripped apart in a law environment and be seen for what you are, someone with no intellectual depth whatsoever quoting from textbooks without understanding the complete ramifications. Go into any law office and regurgitate your silly academic defintions and see what happens. They’d be laughing at you for the rest of the year.
Let’s see if this enters your woolly arrogant space between your ears, ” I have given my consent. There is no blackmail involved. I have made a free choice. I am of sound mind”. Got that?
‘This not is good parenting. Children flock to me like some sort of pied piper. MY FABULOUSNESS.’
What an arrogant show off you are, full of her own importance.
My 3 year old boy is about to throw a jar of jam on the kitchen floor. I shout at him loudly, ” Don’t do that”. He stops and says, ” Why?” I say, “Because I don’t want you to” “Why, mummy” ” Because I’ve got to sweep the mess up and I don’t like doing that”. Is that emotional blackmail? Or is it just my emotion? And what’s wrong with my emotion? Who are you to say that my emotion is wrong… it’s how I feel… why should your feelings be superior to my feeeling?
You are a conservative in mind. You are looking at everything from a cost/benefit, reward/punishment analysis. You see emotional blackmail when in fact it is just an expression of feelings. And there is nothing wrong with feelings. Drop your narrow conservative outlook and experience life, and have those feeelings.
It is I who is dealing with three children while you are playing little tunes on your silly little regurgitated textbook pipe singing” Hey look how much children love me!” Yea children love jesters playing the fool, they’re very popular.
Its quite obvious to me that you don’t have any children nor have you been in a long term man-woman relationship .. isn’t that right? Yet off you go on dispensing 101 pyschology advice to all and sundry. You’re like a piano teacher who hasn’t played the piano but has read all about it in books. And that medical advice you… duh my husband is highly qualified medical professional.
A little knowledge is indeed a dangerous thing.
You’re so angry and it’s so misplaced. I think it’s your husband you want to yell at.
” I have given my consent. ”
But did you get it notarized?
It’s been a good long while since I’ve been sexually active but as I remember it, it went something like this:
Me: Clawing my way up his leg.
Him: Whoa honey geez give me a minute…
Dear Libber:
thanks a lot for your response and advice! Household duties were certainly an important element of the issue. The things which I am capable of doing sufficiently well, and have been readily doing, were washing all our clothes and dishes, cleaning the flat, taking care of our daughter whenever my wife had to go somewhere, and occasionally doing shopping (I admittedly don’t have a good eye in picking the best meat and vegetables in a market stall). Still, she did resent that I cannot cook more than a few basic things like spaghetti, and set the condition that if I manage to find a sufficiently well-paid job abroad that would be enough to support the four of us, she will follow me with the children only if I learn to cook.
PS: I have no gender-based objections against cooking. Peeling vegetables is a task that I regularly do and actually like doing. It is more an issue of time, since apart from my main teaching position, I always had to do various odd jobs, e.g., preparing research reports by deadline, translating texts and so on, to earn enough money, and thus I simply felt too overloaded to do the cooking as well. Overloaded is probably not an exaggeration, because on many occasions I had to work overnight to complete some of these additional duties. Since our son, now 16, can cook and actually likes cooking, I considered it more practical if he helped my wife in cooking and I could earn more money (from which his school fee is also paid) than if I did the cooking and earned less money.
@ M Walker
There was some debate off this forum as to whether or not you were a troll, just having a bit of a laugh at feminists’ expense. Since your third comment, I now concur with the troll assessment. Ciao.
@ Katze
PS: I have no gender-based objections against cooking.
Well strangely, most of the top and celebrity chefs are male. I have no idea why, perhaps females just got sick of the day-to-day non-glory cooking.
The things like shopping for vegetables are learned activities, as are various housework things. It could be that the standard you do these jobs is below par, so ask her if these tasks are not being done correctly.
Without actually seeing your domestic situation, it is difficult to tell who is doing what etc. There is also the possibility that, if as you say you are doing considerable help, that she has a using personality and does not really love you. If this is true, then exit the relationship, live nearby to be with the kids.
btw, the joke about “my FABulousness”, as well as being a bit of an in-joke for my online friends, also worked for non-friends – a rather OBVIOUS play on words/screenname. Some people are just too thick to understand anything.
And “working in a law office” is not actually a qualification, merely work experience. Either you have a degree/qualification in law, or you don’t. It does not make you a QC to work as a typist in a law firm.
“Got that?” x5
What a fucking stupid way to hammer a point.
Anyway, you are now in the idiot pile, along with Wamiie and MrD and Carl.
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Since we got married five years ago, I broke probably two, possibly three dishes during washing, none of which was expensive or of a sentimental value. I also made mistakes in washing clothes. The main problem has been that I do not do these duties as quickly as she would. That is, I do them without delay whenever necessary, but it takes me more time than it would take for her. This does not create any additional burden for her, but she resents that I am unable to work faster, and considers it a symptom of my haplessness (as she puts it). It is not a kind of subconscious reluctance on my part but rather meticulousness and a fear of accidentally damaging something by haste.
If I understood your earlier message correctly, you mean that I should fulfill all of her requirements without expecting anything in return (because I must prove for an additional extended period that I am sufficiently altruistic), whereas she should not do anything specific to improve the situation, because if I asked her to do so, I would not be altruistic any more.
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If I exit the relationship, this means that I must stay where I work now, because where she lives I cannot earn enough to provide the children with a decent living. She is unlikely to restart working in case of a divorce. Divorced or not, I will have to continue to keep them afloat, but I will not be able to visit the children more often than once a year, for two weeks or less.
Katz. Welcome to women’s world. Having to be responsible for the rest of your life when you spawn children. Now go away and be better at it.
Responsibility I do accept. Although the older child is not mine, and his father never contributed a penny to his upbriging, I have loved him as he had been mine. So do I love our daughter, and they love me likewise. Precisely for this reason I am not sure whether it is the best for them if I don’t see them for about 350 days a year just in order to comply with my wife’s wishes, in exchange of which she offers literally nothing.
@M. Walker,
Given your hysterical, vicious responses, I’m guessing you are not in fact a troll, but are who you say you are. “Your attitude is one of a conservative moralising prig who scoops to misrepresentation, devious innuedo and nasty mockery to emotionally blackmail others to satisy her own selfious needs”. WTF? You sound terrified. Also, is “selfious” a law-school term? I have never heard it before.
“regurgiated textbook garbage definitions” – um- a definition is simply that. By your estimation, all of the O.E.D. is “regurgiated textbook garbage definitions”. And you certainly do not seem to know what “consent” means.
Look, I relate to your shitty situation. I gritted my teeth through sex with my partner for a long time for fear of losing him – he was such a “nice” guy after all. Having been raped at 15, penetrative sex was a mine field and I would dread it.
It took me years to figure out that I could define my own desire and say no when I did not feel like having sex. The long-term result of ensuring that I was only having sex because I truly desired it has been that my libido is way up. I have been with my partner for fifteen years now and our sex life just gets better. My desire for him has increased over the years as opposed to what I came to believe was the inevitable loss of it. The fact that I am with a man who would rather eat glass than fuck me when I am not totally into it has been an enormous help.
I wish you all the best and hope you can find some sensual pleasure in your life.
FTR – re: my post – previous and current Nigels are different people (VERY fucking different).
Feminist sites and MRA are so boring. Like MSNBC and Fox News. All this preaching to the choir.
So, Cath, I am flying under my true colors and you decide whether to post this or not.
My 2 cents’ worth: human beings need (not just want) emotional closeness, love and support, so they seek relationships.
In this guy’s experience most (not all) women want sex when they feel wanted and cherished for who they are, before during and after, and the guy is minimally hot enough for them. Women, I am told, also tend to have low testosterone levels and routinely high oxytocin levels.
With guys on the other hand, in an even semi-committed relationship most of the time sex is not actually about sex. Sex is a physical precondition to being able to emotionally bond and merge. In other words, you can tell your boy-squeeze how much you love him until you are blue in the face, but until you get him off, he just won’t believe it. You see, by and large, guys have high levels of testosterone and, except in the afterglow of 2-person sex, disturbingly low levels of oxytocin.
Let me put this another way. Men do not have any more of a right to sex from their wives than women have a right to be emotionally supported by their husbands. Read that again. Please consider what many of you have said above about men and their demands and needs for sex in light of the second half of that sentence.
IMHO it’s awfully hard for both parties to feel wanted and loved if women don’t regularly get that emotional support and men don’t regularly get that sex, because each party has to give what she and he respectively don’t feel completely up to giving (sex and emotional support, respectively, by gender) before she and he can receive what they really want to receive, which is love and emotional bonding.
My thoughts and prayers to you all for joy on your journeys.
This thread was incredibly fascinating. Based on my education, career accomplishments, activism, and voting, I’d have called myself a feminist until today. I guess I’m not. You see, I expect my husband to give me emotional and logistical support whether he feels like it at that exact minute or not. He comes to my belt testings and ceremonies (I’m a martial artist), he wakes up when I have nightmares and holds me until I feel calm again, and he notices when I’m down and leaves me notes or sends me flowers or otherwise takes some sort of action to make me feel loved and appreciated. And because having sex with him gives him emotionally what I get from all of the above, I have sex with him under any reasonable circumstances (obviously, there are times of physical illness or extreme time pressure that are unreasonable) when he wants it. He’s a skilled lover and I always find within ten minutes that he’s managed to get me in the mood I didn’t think I was in when we started. I have never felt cheap or used or devalued. He puts his feelings aside at times to meet my emotional needs, and I do the same for him. Perhaps this is why we have a happy marriage and neither of us has ever even considered a divorce or an affair. I am going to stop referring to myself as a feminist after reading this. I would hate to give anyone the impression that I value and respect my husband so little. Wow. For the first time since age 13, I am not a feminist.
@Holly: Is this some kind of wierd strategy to get all the feminists here to fall over themselves trying to entice you back into the fold?
If so – count me out.
I prefer feminists to have a bit more back bone and a commitment that isn’t so flaky that it disappears as a consequence of a single blog post.
Man, it’s stuff like this that makes me SO GLAD I am a lesbian. Seriously.
But, down thread, there were some people talking about homosexuality as if it were a solution to this dilemma, and I have to say that it really isn’t much of a solution.
My girlfriend and I (we’re girlfriends, but really, we’d be married if we could be) have very different sex drives–hers is much higher than mine. Fairly regularly, she’ll want to have sex when I’m not feeling very horny. Differing sex drives are hardly exclusive to heterosexual relationships.
I love my girlfriend, and, because I love her, I want to satisfy her. Sometimes this means I need a little.. getting in the mood, even if I wasn’t really feeling it to start. Sometimes I’ll feel inspired to help her out, even if I don’t really want it reciprocated. And if I’m really not in the mood, I’ll say ‘no’, and feel confident that my wishes will be respected.
That’s really the key, I think. It’s not the differing desires that cause tension, it’s the pressures and expectations that wives have a *duty* to their husbands that cause problems.
One more thing–I think there’s a really damaging assumption going on here that women are always low-desire and men are always high-desire, when that assumption has been debunked
http://www.livescience.com/1629-study-debunks-myth-women-sex.html
@Kat — Re your last post only: “The race is not always to the strong, nor the battle to the strong;” yes, but that’s the way to bet.
Re your next-to-last post — It was really good hearing your experience in your relationship. Long time gay male friends of mine in long-term relationships have another take on this yet.
I don’t think I am entitled to sex from my wife of 27 years. If I am lucky she feels like having sex twice a year, and that leaves me feeling literally unloved about 50 weeks out of 52. She seems to have a great time when we spend the 60-90 minutes fooling around. We enjoy stroking and massaging and she seems to enjoy my going down on her, but she just doesn’t have much interest in getting started; special occasions and vacation seem to be essential mood setters. She is post-menopausal, so it comes with the territory.
So, to continue my gentle disagreement with you, I’ve been trying to take what I think is a Buddhist / Christian approach: expect suffering in life, and if the cause of suffering is desire, try to let go of desire.
Since I have to take Prozac for the depression that results from feeling emotionally unloved / undesirable anyway, I do my best to enjoy the side effect of it lowering the amount I think about sex by about 90%. (Interestingly, the Prozac is less effective at lowering the feeling of being unloved that comes from lack of mutual sex. And masturbation: again, the point of sex for this guy is giving and receiving emotional love, so choking the bishop doesn’t do much.) Have considered going on depo provera shots to be chemically castrated to balance my libido down to my wife’s, but having a very difficult time finding a doctor who “gets” the situation.
Meditation and prayer are helpful.
Peace.
Well I’m a guy and been married 40 plus years and the last time we had any intimacy or sex was over 25 years ago. And I’m the one is disinterested in sex. Don’t get me wrong I love my wife but not sexually. I’m not gay or into porn either. Ever since I was about 12 or 13 I found no interest in girls nor were my hormones running rampent. The interest in the oppisite sex was never there and I really didn’t know any better. I did get married and I couldn’t find enough interest to make my wife sexually happy. I never felt entitled to sex but if I did my wife would have to be in the mood for sex also. Married life is tough enough why be a demanding mate.
A very interesting discussion. 5 years ago when I was single and an academic feminist, I would not have seen the man’s side of this situation.
But I am in a loving relationship with a man who is very attractive, good at personal hygiene, intelligent and caring – taking care the housework and childcare much more than me – and he has a very high sex drive, whereas mine has diminished since giving birth. I wouldn’t choose to have sex, but I make myself do it a few times a week and make effort to enjoy it. What’s the alternative? No matter how much feminist theory I could make him read, sex is the thing he values the most in the world, and I can choose whether to accommodate his needs occasionally or not – and he can choose whether he wants to be with me anymore or not. Have I been brainwashed by patriarchal values when I feel that this is what is best, especially when it comes to keeping the family together for the sake of our child? – And we are, mostly, a happy family. Nothing is perfect but I do feel that the alternatives to ‘prostituting myself’ would be much worse for all of us and also our extended families.
Feel free to tell me if I have become an anti-feminist without noticing.
This argument is basically unsolvable, men and women are simply not wired the same. Male priorities and Female priorities are vastly different. its much the same as men are monogamous only out of rspect for their wives because it is not part of a man’s wiring to be monogamous. Some men that love and respect their wives / partners sufficiently to remain monogamous consider that an extreme sacrifice in the same way that some women accomodate men’s NEED for sex out of love and respect. This is all negotiable and if couples have an ability to communicate its all part of reaching compromises in a relationship where both partners needs are met.
All you people that rant and rave about your rights are unrealistic, indicate that you have never been in a mutually fulfilling relationship or are too preoccupied with gender biased school’s of thought.
obviously – many women have problems understanding that when you get married – you’re signing up for a sexual relations with your husband on a frequent basis — please, don’t get married if you don’t understand or agree to this
And there was me thinking it was an inheritance tax dodge….
I am a Ver happily married woman of eight wonderful years. That might not sound like that long to some people but with divorce being the norm these days it really is a respectable length of time. When you marry a person you are supposed to give yourself to them mind, body,and soul. Love one another as Christ loves us. Unselfishly giving of urself. If u can’t do this, then don’t marry. Sex is a need in marriage. I am proud to say that I give my body to my husband WHENEVER he wants it. I never want the person i love the most to ever fear rejection from the person he loves most. Husbands and wives should have no boundaries or fences seperating each other. J feel sorry for women who deny their husband’s and themselves the beautiful gift of true trust and intimacy. You are hurting yourselves most of all.
My husband is the type that feels that if he works a few hours a day that I should have to “put out”. My husband doesn’t even put in a 20 hour work week, but I stay home, take care of our two children, clean house, do his laundry, cook his meals, and do the grocery shopping. I put in more hours being a “house mom” than he does at work. I also have a chemical imbalance that makes me have no sex drive what so ever. Sex never crosses my mind. So when I do “put out” it is literally for his benefit only. I don’t see why I should be forced to do something that doesn’t come naturally to me.
Hey I’m jumping in kind of late in the game here! I haven’t read all the 100+ comments here. I’d like to comment on the original post (not the previous 2010 thread, but this 2011 “entitlement” one).
You know how some of these men reference how very very VERY “important” sex is to them? Okay, there is a part of me that wants to listen, empathize, and take them seriously.
Then there is another part of me that seriously wonders: isn’t that the sort of thing that one should work on rising above and overcoming? When anything is THAT important, it’s often a sign that we have some kind of unhealthy attachment to it. Right?
That’s the kind of thing that people are encouraged to go to therapy to try to work on. Isn’t it?
This topic also reminds me of a book I read a year or so ago that detailed research done on “dopamine dysregulation”. I’m no expert on the topic (I read one little book, big whoop!). But I thought it was interesting. The authors theorized that a lot of people in our currently sex-obsessed culture believe that they have “really high sex drives”, when really they’ve CONDITIONED THEMSELVES via frequent masturbation/porn (and/or sex with a person) to be addicted to the dopamine that’s released in their brains during orgasm.
The result being that they come to believe that they just naturally NEED frequent sex (orgasm in particular), when in reality this is a situation that they’ve cultivated inside themselves via their personal HABITS – but then go on to inflict onto others around them, requesting help in relieving their supposed “suffering, as if they have an inherently natural condition that they’ve been burdened with.
That kinda put into words something that I think I’ve sensed before but did not have the vocab or knowledge to even begin to understand. Namely: times when I have felt pursued by my partner, only it doesn’t seem like there’s any desire there to connect with ME; I am merely a “means to an end”, Merely a vehicle for the feel-good chemical “hit” that they feel desperate for.
It’s a really big turn-off when that happens. (Yet, hard sometimes to even identify what seems so gross/weird/unnerving about those times.) I wonder how many women out there have sensed that kind of vibe, and have shut down or backed away from their partners because of it.
Utter garbage and hitting the nail on the head in equal amounts! Anyone who doesn’t want to have sex can always come up with as many reasons as somebody who does……….we all know what they are.
Its the most natural thing in the world to want sex, thats why were here! But something goes wrong somewhere and has always gone wrong. Then we get posts in forums like this…………
Lets get one thing clear in the year 2012
It is not wrong or dirty or childish to want to have a good sex life. Unfortunately as men we are made to feel that. Every relationship is different but one that constantly has a problem with sex shows that there is something wrong and will lead to resentment or unfaithulness eventually. I sometimes wonder if it would be easier to have a fling every now and then or an affair etc but I personally know that is wrong and is hurtful and shows no love to be in the relationship.The need for sex once twice a week whatever, is not something that men (and some women) can shake off. Its a very powerful need and has been with us since we walked on this planet There has to be a compromise somehow or there is no point in living together either within marriage or not.
I ask myself why I am with the woman I am with and the answer is I like being with her, we have a laugh together, i think she is sexy, she’s a good cook, she lets me have space, etc etc etc MANY REASONS……..I ask myself why I want to make love with her….well…in my head it sort of goes with loving them. A physical demonstration of how much I feel for them and want them to feel the same thing i do and I DO THIS ONLY WITH YOU. I AM FAITHFUL. I do lots of things with everyone else but NEVER THIS…..THIS IS SPECIAL WITH YOU AND ME. That’s about it really, not much to ask infact if you had sex twice a week it would amount to about 2% of your free time.ie not working or sleeping etc……….. I guess I’m just a dreamer. Relationships always seem to end up the same unless
The husband suddenley becomes gay
Is wanking all the time
Is too old to do it
Works all the hours
Has a hobby that is all consuming
Has a Sweedish Au pair
Infact anything that prevents him having a healthy relationship with his wife……………..
All the above can apply to a woman too albeit in a smaller ratio.
Good luck!
dreamer, I think you’re overlooking something really big here.
What’s “healthy” and “natural” for men is not so healthy and natural for women in the intercourse department. You’re saying that there’s nothing more natural than wanting to have sex (and I assume you’re equating “sex” with intercourse, specifically). That may be true for a lot of males. But for females, it’s very natural and normal for us to NOT want to do it, and to want to protect our health and our insides.
Intercourse occurs on the insides of our bodies and exposes us to serious consequences, whether we’re married or not. This is a really big deal. Think about it,and think what’s good and “natural” – for the female body. I mean, really think about it. The reality for us, physically: the stress, the worry, how one act of intercourse can change our entire lives, and until modern times, could very often END our lives through serious pregnancy consequence. Medical advancements have improved that, but that knowledge and fear regarding intercourse being a threat to our health and safety is deeply embedded into our DNA.
You’re also saying that wanting to have PIV sex with your wife is a physical demonstration of your love for her. Do you see the contradiction in that? How is it loving to insist on putting a woman at risk (her health) and wishing that she would want something that YOU want, that benefits you and is “fun” for you, but puts her at risk but not you? That’s not very loving. I think that’s a little rude and mean, ultimately, when you really think about it.
Lastly, do you really think there’s no point in living together or being together unless you can put your penis inside an interior organ of her body (and put her at risk for consequences that you will never be at risk of experiencing)? I know that is the mainstream popular culture view so it’s not totally shocking that you believe that. But what do you think when you hold that belief up to the light and examine it for what it really is?
Personally, I don’t think it sounds good or right to make love and relationships contingent upon access to internal body organs. I think we’re better than that and that love is much much bigger than that.
Firstly many women find it normal,natural and healthy to have sex in its many and varied forms, maybe not as much as men on the whole but don’t have me believe that only men want sex because that is just not the case.
Men did not invent sex but we always seem to get the blame. Sexual attraction and pleasure has been around for ever, it embedded in the DNA as you say and not just with humans take Dolphins for example they have sex for pleasure.
I believe in being faithful to the woman I love but as I said before sex is part of that commitment because it is exclusive to the partnership or at least it should be. Nothing else is expected to be that exclusive in a relationship (well I can’t think of anything else)
You seem to focus on the physical risk of intercourse, that is not the whole story
what about kissing and holding each other and other forms of sex…..obviously if there is a genuine physical problem then intercourse would be a problem and would need to be investigated. Also quite often there is no risk of pregnancy if the man has had a vasectomy.
As I said before you can always find a reason to not do something……….
You try to put sex over as degrading act which worries me slightly, when you are making your point about the living together bit. If thats all sex is ie putting your penis inside an interior organ……what!? No wonder you don’t want to have sex! Niether would I if thats on the menu………OF course theres more to a relationship than the 2% of sex that I may or may not get and I enjoy every minute of it…….Its just that I would like to enjoy the 2% of making love too.
Quite often if a couple are not making love regulary it does point to there being something wrong with the relationship. ie fallen out of love, wife or husband having an affair, not spending enough time with each other etc and so yes there probably is no point………..
You can’t have it both ways ie ” I want you to be faithful to me and never even look at another woman and I don’t think sex is that important. so even though I have let you ” use ” me when I first met you but that was just to let you know that I can have sex otherwise you may look for another mate.” Where’s the love in that? It sounds more like a controlling thing to me.
And……if the sex is not that important or shouldn’t be taken into account in a relationship as to the VALUE OF THAT RELATIONSHIP why is it such a big deal if you have sex with someone else?? Or even casual intimacy ie kissing and holding close…… Its a rhetorical question really because I WOULD BE VERY CROSS if my wife had any sex etc with someone else but then I really wouldn’t blame her if I had been withholding intimacy from her that I knew she was desperately needing…………………..
First, I definitely agree with you, that there is more to sex than just intercourse.
Still, it’s unrealistic to not ALSO acknowledge the normal, natural, and common risks to women w/regard to intercourse, and their radiating impact. Many of which it sounded you were experience and expressing confusion over, in your initial post.
That’s the degrading part – the denial of the reality for the female body. Our bodies are different from yours. We did not invent that. It’s the reality we all live with, handed down to us by nature.
Think about it.
For us, pleasure coexists alongside suffering – and serious physical consequence – to a MUCH greater degree than for you. Think about what that would be like, in reality. I agree with you that it probably seemed like I was “focusing more on the physical risk” here. Absolutely. Because nowhere in your previous post did you even mention or acknowledge those basics.
I also agree with you – it’s not the “whole story” (physical consequence and suffering) for women with regard to sex. But it’s the very big, significant part – that you completely omitted. And I can’t say for certain, but it’s very possibly directly linked to your confusion surrounding your wife – her physical reality, and her disinterest in engaging with you sexually. That’s why I brought it up, with a “focus” on the physical. You weren’t acknowledging that, yet you were claiming to view sex with her as loving and “special”. However, glossing over her female realities – that’s not realistic, nor loving, and definitely not special. It would make sense that a woman who’s dismissed in that way might not want to engage sexually. Like at all.
Also, why is it such a big deal if you have sex with someone else? In my opinion, it’s because sex is a big deal. With your spouse, with others – with anyone. It’s a big deal and has serious CONSEQUENCES. It leads to (literally) life and death. I know – the consequences are trivialized in movies and on TV, and in our modern-day “immediate gratification”, me me me, pleasure-oriented culture, but in reality it’s a life-altering big deal. Yet we plow ahead, confusing wishful thinking and fantasy with how REALITY is “supposed to be” – and take sex, intercourse, it’s consequences (and the suffering it causes, to so many) so lightly. Then wonder, in bewilderment, why so many conflicts, fears and hurt feelings are arising in the first place.
Just my opinion. But I hope you’ll think about it and really consider what I’m saying.
To me it seems like this isn’t so much an issue of male or female but an issue of compromise. If one partner in a relationship wants more sex than the other partner, wouldn’t it be fair and logical for both partners to compromise and have an amount of sex somewhere in between both of their ideal amounts? IE
when one partner wants sex and the other doesn’t, they have sex anyway on 50% of those instances, and don’t have sex on the other 50% In other words when wants differ, each person gets what they want half the time, since in the instance of one person wanting sex and one not obviously one person is going to get what they want, and one person isn’t, no matter what.
I just think a relationship should be about the wishes of both people, not just one. It wouldn’t be fair for the lower sex drive partner to always be expected to have sex anyway even when they’re not in the mood, but it also wouldn’t be fair to expect the higher drive partner to go without every time they want to and their partner doesn’t. Basically, compromise, that’s my deal. Am I full of it people?
My husband pestered himself right into an open relationship. I gave & gave & gave sex because I loved him and wanted his needs met. I didn’t give much thought to my own. I was able to stay at home with our son and I was grateful. I failed to realize that the only reason I’m staying at home with our son is because he dragged me to a foreign country for his job and I can’t work because of his odd hours, but mostly because there are no jobs here for me. I also failed to realize that I did/do EVERYTHING for our son, kept the house clean, trash taken out, clothes washed and put away, amazing meals cooked every day, bills paid on time, and even kept my husband’s world running because of his poor memory and inability to write important things down.
One day I woke up and started caring about my own needs. Sex with my husband hadn’t been good in over a year. He pestered me about it when I was sick and pregnant, pestered me about it when I was on bedrest, pestered me about at least getting him off or letting him get off when I was on no-sex bedrest, pestered me about it when having our son broke some of my pelvic bones, pestered me about it when the internal tearing caused sex to be painful for many months, and pestered me about it when I was all healed up and still giving it to him (out of duty) every other day or two. He wouldn’t even give me a chance to make it my idea.
His job also took him away for a year and he apparently masturbated himself into premature ejaculation. So when he comes home, not only does he pester me about sex several times a day, but then he can only last about a minute. I finally just said “ENOUGH!” He now knows not to dare ask me about giving him sex. He still wants to be affectionate, but I don’t even want that because he has taught me that looking at him too sweetly, bending over, changing clothes in front of him, hugging, holding his hand, etc etc….will lead to him asking for sex. I still try to be somewhat affectionate, even having sex once every week or two, but now it is out of pity, not love. I can’t even feel anything for him now because when we do have sex, I am less than satisfied. Sex ruined our marriage. I care so little about it now. I’ve told him that he should just go out and get what he needs from someone else. I don’t even say it with anger. Good luck to him though. He has let himself go since we met. I’m curious to see if he does take me up on my offer and tries to start looking good for other women. He sure hasn’t been trying to do that with me. I haven’t changed a bit, unless you count my not being a sexual doormat anymore. He didn’t demand sex or get mad if I didn’t want it, he just PESTERED ME TO DEATH ABOUT IT. He knew he was being annoying, but kept at it because I didn’t really put my foot down. Well it’s down and he’s finally ready to listen. It might be too late though.
There is still that part of me that sometimes believes that if I’m not giving it to him, he deserves to get it somewhere. He doesn’t want an open marriage because he doesn’t want it to be open for me. Well, I hope I’ve made it clear that he’s put me off of all men for the time being. He says that he feels terrible, but when he’s had too much to drink, all he talks about is sex. Last night he asked if I’d let him go down on me every so often. He knows that doesn’t do much for me, yet he asks anyway. It makes me sick. I wish he’d just move on. My number one priority now is that we are both here for our son no matter what happens to us. Our number one priorities aren’t even in line……..
I’d like to add that I opted for an open relationship situation for my husband’s sake. I seriously played the field before I got married and have now decided there is no man out there for me. I like having and doing things on my own terms, so I am not looking to replace my husband with someone more compatible. We get along, he works (and I will as soon as I’m able), and we have a child together. I told him I’m not looking to divorce him. I’m not looking to replace him. I just need a break from him and all the sexual pressure. We already sleep in separate bedrooms because of his snoring. He also gets on my last nerve. I find it hard to have sex with someone I don’t respect. The dumb things he says and does add up daily. It’s hard not to scream at him or pull my hair out, but I try really hard to let it roll off my back for the sake of his ego. I swear he wasn’t like this when we were dating or early in our marriage. Lack of sex = dumb? I’m almost kidding. It reminds me of the Seinfeld episode.
I don’t think it’s unreasonable to let my husband have sex outside of our marriage because of our situation. I am unable to fulfill his needs. The needs aren’t important to me anymore, but they are important to him. It doesn’t really matter to me that he’s turned me into this. I think it’s the only fair option that I can give right now. I can’t be pressured into caring about him sexually anymore. He deserves to feel sexually wanted. I am getting more than enough fulfilling sex in my dreams. He provides a home and groceries. I clean the home and provide meals. It beats the hell out of working 2 jobs just to keep a roof over my head and pay for childcare. I’m not paying him with sex anymore though. I’m already a maid, babysitter, and a personal secretary. Ha, it took me taking sex off the table to get compliments on my meals or anything else that I do regularly to make BOTH of our lives easier. I’m an incredible cook and it hurt to only get an “it’s ok”. He tried to sell me with “ok means good”. But when he makes a rare meal, and usually messes it up, he expects me to rant and rave about how wonderful it is. Or wants to be thanked profusely for washing one dish. It’s tiresome……
While I’m here and I see the very valid statement that PIV can also be called “putting at risk for pregnancy”, I’m going to bring up something my husband did in the past that aggravated me to no end. He acted like he was the only one worried about me getting pregnant again. He doesn’t want anymore children or rather he didn’t until he realized our marriage was falling apart. He’d remind me about my pill (every so often) and make comments around other people about adamantly not wanting another kid. Yet, he had no problem cumming inside of me. Never gave it a second thought. I finally told him that it’s not JUST HIM that doesn’t want to get me pregnant. I don’t want to get pregnant because of how hard the pregnancy was, how horrible he was while I was pregnant and after, and how little attention he’s paid to the baby that we made together. He hasn’t said too much about it since then, but said he felt “hopeful” when I told him I wasn’t ready to get rid of our old baby things. Well, I got rid of it all last week.
I actually consider my husband “one of the good ones”, but I can’t make it work just for him anymore. My husband has been trying to help out around the house and with our son, but it is so forced and half-hearted, and usually so half done that he might as well not even bother. He’s doing it to help the marriage, but so much damage has already been done. And the attitude I have or had about men “needing” regular sex only makes things worse.
Polly is always spot on, but her posts are a year old:(
If my husband tries to make an open relationship work, do I think he’ll be able to get it every day or even several times a day? No, he’ll likely be getting it even less than if he just waited on me. Now, I, on the other hand……lol, but I don’t really want an open relationship. I just want mine to be more equal.
The main problems with our marriage are/were the pressure to give him sex, his developing premature ejaculation, and his inability to listen to me or remember any damn thing that I say. I’ve read and been told by a counselor that “that’s just how men are”. Well, I told her, in front of him, that if that is the way men are, then I don’t want one. Our marriage seems utterly doomed. There is so much wrong with it now. I’m not interested in the self help articles/books telling me what I need to do, like give more sex and affection, because I have tried that and it didn’t work. Now I just want to do only what I’m comfortable doing at any given moment. If that means giving up my marriage, then I will. It’s no longer worth it to me. It’s been give, give, give for too long. I’m no longer willing to compromise. He’s going to have to catch up on the gives if he wants to save this marriage.
A comment on Carl’s unending question: Most people in a new relationship can’t get enough of each other sexually. It is eventually going to calm down and even out, usually. It does not mean that the woman faked it to get a man. The relationship just calmed down. It has always happened that way for me. I never married the countless other men because they usually calmed down before I did. Not in a sexual way, but in a caring, romantic way. It usually only took about a year. You can avoid the problem of marrying someone who is faking sex just to get a husband, by, duh, not getting married too fast. I’m sure that was already suggested, but wanted to put my 2 cents in. I married my husband too fast and got pregnant too fast also. I guess my biological clock got the better of me.
I’m not here looking for outside help on fixing my marriage. I just wanted to tell my story. It feels good to get it out, especially when you have an uncommunicative partner at home. He wasn’t always this way. It’s just happened. I’m looking for my husband to fix the problems he has caused. I already do the “I feel sorry for you” sex every so often when the idea doesn’t repulse me. I show affection daily, but not to the extent that I know my husband wants it. I already am doing all of the same things I’ve always done in regards to making the house run smoothly. Maybe things will improve one day. Once I’m back in my home country, able to work, able to get out and do things, I might feel better. If my husband gets his PE problem fixed, even sex I don’t want to have might feel great once it gets started. That’s how it was early in the relationship. But you can’t expect a person to have regular sex that they don’t enjoy. That’s torture and just one more chore to add to my list. Maybe our relationship can grow from this, but I certainly wouldn’t begrudge him going out to look for affection elsewhere. Experience has put me off monogamous relationships anyway. I think open would be a lot easier for us if he’s that sexual. I’m just not. I like to give my all to a partner maybe 1-2 times a week….and an occasional quickie. He wants it 1-2 times a day. I’m not compromising to meet his needs anymore. He doesn’t meet mine.
Hello all, I now have proof that sex is a need in order to feel love. Lookup Dr Harley and ‘The Love Bank’. Statistically, most men need sex and recreational companionship (includes any sport) to feel love. This is due to testosterone. Statistically, most women need conversation and affection to feel love. I know, sounds like we are all doomed. To each other, the love needs sound ridiculous but its true. I’m a man and couldn’t imagine feeling love merely from conversation and affection, but it works for my wife, so thats what I give her. She doesn’t know about my secret need (sex) but I get it more this way.
THANK YOU. Im sorry, but i DO put out and my husband STILL complains about not getting enough sex. If im ever not in the mood he immediatly says “you never wamt to have sex with me!” Even if it was last night. I used to just “suck it up” which honestly… Is horrible. Hes trying to get me in the mood and the whole time i resent him for making sex another fucking chore. I used to sit there and think the whole time “please just hurry up and get it over with, please omg just fucking finish and get off me” which is HORRIBLE. Men, if you expect this of your wife you are a shitbag and you should do her a favor and disappear. I no longer force myself to endure sex, but now theres the spiraling problem of him pressuring me bringing up bad feelings and making me not want to have sex, because it feels like an obligation rather than something i want to do, and then its “we never have sex” doesnt he realize if he would just get off my back and let me come to him it would not only happen more, but be something i actually enjoyed?
If there’s one thing that i have learned is that relationships are a two-way street. Sara you say that sex has become another chore. Tell me, why is that? What is it you find so horrible about doing the deed? Does it hurt? Is it too time consuming? Does it hurt your ego to give in to your husband’s desires?
It all comes down in both accepting yourselves for who or what you are and compromises are an essential part of any relationship, especially in marriages. I’m sure you might disagree on that but if a man decides to be respectful and endure the lack of intimacy, especially for long periods of time, the same should be expected for you in other areas such as talking, cuddling, do things for a woman that a man wouldn’t normally do. In many cases, if a man neglects to do those things for her wife, you can be sure that sex will be off the table (or shall i say bed). It’s just another form of control & punishment women have over man.
Another obvious fact that should be considered is that sex comes very easily to women as opposed to men. Women know it and it’s an exploit against men. It’s not evil it’s just the way it is. If that weren’t true, there wouldn’t be prostitution.
Men are wired differently than women where sex is concerned. If it were only a small minority of them behaving this way then I could say it’s a problem. But hardly, the main thing that drives a man to pursue women is sexual attraction and they know it. Like i said, it’s a form of control whether it’s intentional or not. As a result, men can be manipulative in order to get what they want and women are also manipulative by withholding that they crave the most and make them do things they wouldn’t want to do, it also becomes a burden for men.
In my own beliefs, God made men that way probably to ensure we don’t face extinction and as a result, women are faced with pressure in their everyday lives.
A friend of mine has been with his girlfriend for almost 2 years and they never had sex. She somehow was able to keep him for so long but eventually she lost him. When she did, suddenly she was willing to give him what he wants but it was too late, there was too many emotional manipulations and empty promises and he couldn’t take it anymore. I introduced him to a nice girl friend of mine, that was in 2000. Today they are married and living happily.
So Sara, you’re probably right when you said that if he lets you come to him you would enjoy it but i seriously doubt it would happen often as you mentioned, especially when you said that you have to “endure” it.
Bottom line, if you can’t accept your husband for who he is then you have no business being with him.
I’ve said it before and i’ll say it again, relationships are a 2-way street for everything without exception. If you’re uncomfortable with that notion then perhaps you should try a relationship with a women instead?
ENTITLEMENT
That is a word that i’m not too fond of. A lot of men will use that term to just to get sex. A lot of women will also use that word in the event of a divorce to get half of what they own, especially if the husband is rich.
Women will use “entitlement” as well when it suits them, sad but true!
It is unnatural for human beings to breed like rabbits. Overpopulation is one of the biggest problems on planet earth. So men shouldn’t have a newfound requirement for sex that only came about in the past 50 years due to the invention of contraceptions. The mere anticipation of sex for a man is enough to feel love. That’s why a man can feel in love with a women he meets as a single. The moment after sex (few seconds, minutes) a man feels weird because the need for sex is temporarily gone. There is no anticipation for sex. I’d like to further Dr Harley’s findings by saying that most men require sex anticipation in order to feel love. The key is for a woman to not completely ban sex, but to string him along. Once people realise what the needs are for each gender, then its easy. Men should masturbate in between sex. Tasteful or loving pornography like Kama Sutra is good for men. Let the woman choose when the sex happens. Don’t ever try to seduce her unless you are absolutely sure she wants to. It may be about once a month that a woman wants to have sex.
Makes a lot of sense that we shouldn’t breed like rabbits but it’s not really the intention of procreating everytime we have sex. The biggest problem that we males have, is the constant need for it. Like you said females will want it once a month maybe and males well it’s something like every 20 minutes or so. It is excessive and completely unfair for everyone, it’s a really bad design on God’s part (or whatever created us). Women should realize that there is no on/off switch for it, it is something that we must live with everyday and if women chose not to care then they should expect the same treatment, men have feelings too. It is quite true about feeling the love while anticipating for sex and then it vanishes until the cycle restarts. Sure there is masturbation and it does provide the necessity release but it is nothing compared to having sex, it may be psychological but then again the same could be said when a women tells her man she is not in the mood. It’s all in our heads and it’s not gonna go away.
I’ve had many relationships in my life and i was faced with the same issue with one of them. My needing it was nothing excessive like Sara’s husband, personally once a week is enough for me but it’s different for everyone, woman included. I met this girl in a chatroom through some real life friends. We’ve been together for almost 3 months. After the first month we did it once and that was it. Her answer was always “I’m not in the mood and there are other things in life besides sex.” So the discussion never went any further, no point in hassling her. She was spending a lot of time chatting, boy she really loved it! Even to the point where i got frustrated and told her that chatting isn’t the only thing in life either. Sure it’s not exactly an ideal comparison but the point was taken but still nothing changed, she did whatever she wanted and didn’t take into account my feelings even though i respected hers. If the roles were reversed and i’d be constantly let’s say programming like i do several hours a day, i would’ve been expected to comply and please her to do things she wanted to do that i didn’t want to, something that is typical among couples. Like i’ve said in my earlier post, it is important to compromise, not necessarily give in to every demand every time but pleasing their men once in a while is as important as pleasing women as well in other areas. When men neglects their women for other things, they let us know and insists that we make an effort. Why should it be any different for them?
A married women once said to me that if there is something that you cannot have in your marriage then you have to get it elsewhere. Honestly i was shocked to hear that given that i was against cheating no matter what. Thinking that one of my childhood friends that was in a sexless marriage with two kids, it got me thinking and i eventually agreed with her. Personnally i never cheated, never had a reason to but there are men trapped in marriages and it’s not a good feeling, something i’ve seen first hand for my friend. So ladies, relationships are 50/50 and both should put a little water in their wine.
EVERY single man who has posted here is a nasty, entitled, rapist piece of shit. No wonder women are abandoning men en masse. I know I have. Gooooood riddance.
@Yisheng Qingwa
I am a man, i posted here a few times, i’m hardly nasty and i definitely never raped anyone. More power to you for getting rid of your p.o.s.
Here’s what got me here by accident a few months ago: last year, my 14-year old daughter was abused and almost raped. I was able to catch that piece of shit just in time. My daughter told me that if i hadn’t, she would’ve kept it to herself and i would’ve never know. The abuses went on for weeks before i found out. Suffice to say, i was very lucky to have caught him and he’s in jail now.
So I was looking for information regarding the emotional impact and what i could do for my daughter and i landed on this site and i read various sections for hours… I found this thread to be quite interesting and informative.
I’ve asked a few questions in my previous posts regarding the issues women have with their husbands regarding their expectations of regular sex and i’m a little dissapointed there was no answer. It’s one thing to talk amongst yourselves but it won’t solve much and (good & decent) men need to get involved with such things as i’ve seen some women speak out (in videos) regarding hate groups against men.
If you are not happy in a marriage, get a divorce. If I can’t have regular sex I am gone. It doesn’t mean I don’t think she is a wonderful person. It just means she can’t meet my needs. And I expect that to go both ways. I am not goint to live for decades sexually frustrated. But I hope she has a happy single life or meets someone with a low sex drive.
If men “need” to have sex to feel emotional closeness with a spouse, what does cheating solve? The fact that men cheat proves the point that it is just a physical drive. Or are they forming some sort of close emotional bond with some woman they meet in a bar?
Of course any married person should expect sex from their spouse. What’s the point in getting married otherwise? You could just be friends forever? You get married, form a stable family unit in which kids can be produced. That’s been going on for thousands of years.
Couples should really discuss this issue before marriage. If they are virgins, they can talk about the idea of it. “If I get married, and my wife wants sex but I don’t, and I’m not sick and there is no reason not to, I’ll have sex with her. What do you think about that?” may be a way to approach the subject. The stereotype is it’s the man who ends up not getting the sex he wants, but it works the other way, too in some marriages. Some women are sex-starved by husbands who just aren’t interested, or who have trained themselves to be attracted to electronic images and their own hands. Either way, not taking care of their partner for no good reason is just evil and selfish.
Sometimes a man will have sex with a woman before marriage. Each is trying to impress the other. Let’s say the woman cares little for sex, but to interest the man, she has sex a lot with them. Once the wedding is over, she rests easy, but cuts him off sexually. It’s kind of like fraud if you think of it– bait and switch. You show one product, but give another. He just committed himself to her for life, giving up all other options for sexual fulfillment, and then she cuts him off. It happens the other way, too.
If someone gets pelvic cancer, we understand their not having intercourse. But saying “I don’t feel like it tonight” every night for six months when you have no legitimate reason is just plain selfish.
It’s really sad to see zealous attraction to the thrill of joining/promoting a “cause” become so emotionally important to people that they can’t also allow themselves to enjoy the simple pleasures of life and relationships as well. My wife clearly enjoys the sensation of our making love, we rarely share the experience without both of us being satisfied (unless she’s ridiculously good at faking). She’s so enthralled with the notion that’s it’s imperative that sexual activity be performed on feminist terms that she prefers to lie in bed next to me untouched, night after night, above sharing the joy of us making love together.
Trying to discuss the dissatisfaction this leaves me with in our relationship ends up in feminist catch-phrase declarations of me being “too demanding”, needing to “learn to compromise”, not having the right to “expect” to be able to make love and sex being “not an important part of our marriage.” She claims to be unhappy with my “terms” for sharing sex. My main focus is generally, and almost always in practice, that we both enjoy it together.
Honestly people, I’m as perturbed about many of the ways our twisted version of “civilization” has thrown many groups of people into corners of disrespect, neglect and even shame. Going bonkers about the unfairness of things around us without enjoying how the security and comfort that the closeness of a real relationship, even (or, maybe, especially) to the point of intimacy, can alleviate and overcome that unfairness individually is no route to happiness.
Make love, not war
😉
Ms. Elliott (forgive me if I got the prescript wrong).
I can’t believe some of the things I’m reading on here. I would have thought a blog of this caliber wouldn’t descend to this level of anti-male and anti-marriage maliciousness.
And Polly’s post:
Ok I have a question:
Why does a wife (or a husband, she said Life of Brian
stylee) have a duty to accommodate her (or his) spouse’s
‘need’ for sex.
BUT:
The spouse does NOT have to accommodate the non sex
wanting partner’s desire to NOT have sex.
Was completely ignored. This is by far the most insightful thing said on this post and it didn’t even make a dent. That is true equality, the backbone of intelligent discussion.
This boils down to two individuals trying to make a good go of it. Some of the anti-male tripe being served up as advice is offensive and underhanded. The idea that a woman’s needs are more valid than a man’s is the same bull**** that the women’s lib movement was fighting against a hundred years ago. Both partners are equally responsible for being true to themselves and doing what they can to keep the relationship strong.
My buddy’s dad had a heart problem and couldn’t get it up so he bought a strap-on to keep his wife happy. Why do I get the feeling some of you are relishing in his relative emasculation instead of lauding what that must have taken from both of them?
Marriage is a contract, a business agreement with a lot of unspoken clauses. Like me, love me, help out around the house, help me raise our kids, be financially responsible, get my back when I need it and expect the same out of me. If any one of those goes out of balance the relationship can start to spiral out of control.
Marriage is doing things that bring us closer together, not taking an ideological standpoint to rationalize questionable behavior.
What would you say if the husband decided he didn’t want to work anymore? Would you expect the wife to abandon their home, take two extra jobs, or give their kids up to CPS in order to accommodate him? That’s insane. You’d tell her (and rightfully so) to leave him. Sex might not be a big deal to you, but you certainly don’t speak for all of us. It’s a huge deal, and the lack of it destroys relationships just as much as anything else.
Do I have a right to sex? No more than I have a right to the TV remote, a back-rub, or a spot on the couch; but forcibly denying any of those things (if they’re important to the partner) is setting the stage for the twilight of the relationship because it speaks to a basic lack of empathy and respect. That leads to keeping score, and everybody loses when you keep score.
You don’t feel like a partner has a right to sex? You obviously don’t understand what sex means to many people and I hope your partner is patient enough to help you see that sex isn’t a right or a privilege. I don’t want my wife to just have sex with me, I want my wife to WANT to have sex with me. When that changes then it unbalances the entire foundation the relationship is built on because sex is a lot more than just ‘masturbating with a woman.’
The thing most of you seem to be ignoring is that most of us could be f***ing other people. No one has to be sexless. The point is that we want to be with the person who means the most to us, and putting someone in the position where they even consider f****ing someone else because the most basic of needs isn’t being met is a fundamental failure of understanding.
If my wife didn’t cook, I’d eat out and no one would say anything. If I didn’t cut the grass my wife could hire the kid down the street to cut it for us. It’s only with sex that the morality of the relationship comes into play. Either you’re ideologically consistent and say ‘it’s no big deal, go f*** whoever you want to, our relationship is just fine” or you’re a hypocrite. How many of you are OK with an open relationship?
My best friend is a hardcore feminist and was a woman for most of his life. He started taking Testosterone and officially became a man 5 years ago. 2 months into his therapy he called me to apologize for giving me so much grief about sex over the years because he “didn’t understand it was like this.”
Sophocles himself weighed in when someone asked him, at the age of 80, if he could still be with a woman. He replied:
“Hush, man; most gladly indeed am I rid of it all, as though I had escaped from a mad and savage master”
Start taking testosterone and carry on like nothing happened when your partner starts lording sex over you or, worse yet, denies you completely. We’ll see how long you last, I guarantee you wouldn’t last nearly as long as some of the brave people on this post have.
The simple idea that anyone (man or woman) is willing to go without THE SINGLE GREATEST EXPERIENCE IN THEIR LIFE for years before sharing their story deserves more than derision from the people on this forum. Any form of emotional blackmail is repulsive, especially when it’s couched in irony and ivory superiority. That isn’t feminism, it’s damaged goods acting like bullies, hoping to make themselves feel better at the expense of others.
Instead of trying to understand the subtleties of these complex relationships you’re trying to boil them down into fabulous epigrams of Women’s-Lib snark. It’s shameful, repetitive, boorish and boring.
Thank you for your time.
Jason H.
Everyone keeps talking about “regular sex” and “withholding”. In looking for the definition of withholding sex (meaning, how many times are you allowed to say no before it’s “withholding”), and was not surprised to see countless answers left by men (of course) stating that ONE time of withholding was too much. And withholding is saying no to sex for any reason.
I’ve been married for 7 years. Like everyone else, at the beginning, we couldn’t keep our hands off each other. Like everyone else, over time, things slowed down. We went through several periods that would last 1-3 months where we didn’t have sex at all, because I didn’t want to. The reasons for not having sex were many, but mainly, I felt like an indenturerd servant. I work a full time job, am the sole care giver for our son, our dog, and our three cats. I do all of the cooking, cleaning, shopping, yardwork, trash….the list goes on. My husband works a 50-60 hour work week, comes home, eats the dinner I put in front of him (after he complains about it not being balanced because I made corn on the cobb as the vegetable instead of something green, so therefore, it doesn’t count as a vegetable), then goes into the office, gets on the computer, and I don’t see him again until our son is in bed, and it’s time for me to pleasure him.
He doesn’t come right out and say it, obviously, but he expects sex EVERY day, sometimes multiple times a day. I am of the opinion that every other day is more than sufficient, and still better than most people out there that are married. However, if I have the audacity to tell him one night that I’m not in the mood (despite the fact that we’ve already had sex 5 times that week and it’s only Thursday), he throws an absolutely unholy fit. I don’t love him, I’m not attracted to him, I must be screwing someone else, I never want to have sex, my sex isn’t good enough, I’m not adventerous enough, I don’t make enough noise, blah, blah, blah. Basically, if I’m not swinging from the chandelier with my lingere on and a vibrator in my hand when he decides he’s going to get off the computer and come get what’s his, then I’m passively agressively “withholding” sex.
It’s my opinion that withholding sex would be defined as the periods we went through earlier in our marriage where we weren’t having sex. I don’t think that saying no thanks once or twice a week constitutes withholding.
Dear God, how much sex is enough? Answer, it’s never enough.
We like to think we’ve come so far as an advanced culture, but the truth of the matter is still that we women are nothing more than property. Except now we don’t get to just stay home with the kids. We have to work full-time, do all the housewife work, and then still make ourselves sexually available to our husbands whenever they get a hard on.
My husband won’t masturbate – he says he’d rather be doing it with me. What to do when you have no interest, are not allowed to say no (I took part in a 2.5 hour fight last night that started because I was exhausted, and that only ended at 2:00 am because I had to get up for work in a few hours, and finally gave in and having sex with him), and they twist and turn everything into being about them and how unfair everything is for them?
Last night, he prompty fell asleep after having sex, and I sobbed in bed next to him for the next hour. But yeah, I guess we terrible, cold, frigid unfeeling wives just need to give the poor guy a blow job or a hand job to keep them happy. Screw the fact that you sobbed yourself to sleep because you feel dirty, used, helpless, etc. It’s all about the happiness of the penis. Sorry, you don’t have one, so your happiness doesn’t matter.
Do wives HAVE to have sex? No, they have a legal and moral right to decline.
But do husbands EXPECT sex? Of course we do; it is part of marriage, and to stop it altogether would be like joining the tennis TEAM but refusing to attend practice. Now, there are many reasons, medical or psychological, why a woman might not be able to have sex, and to those dealing with that, I wish you the best of luck working through those issues. But for those who “just don’t want to,” you either do not care about your marriage, or you don’t know what you’re doing.
Most women do not really understand a man’s sex drive. They think it is like an amped-up their own, but it is not. If a man is in a committed relationship, a primal, biological instinct takes root. If they go without for too long (how long depends on individual), their rational brain starts to short circuit, skewing how they view the world, especially you. If left for too long, ultimately, the beast within will triumph. Your man might try to go about like nothing has changed, but inside, his love for you will be dead.
I know this will not be seen as politically correct, but it seems like a lot of feminist writers lately want an “egalitarian” marriage which only considers the needs of one partner. If any women reading this are looking for honest answers, then I promise you: unless your husband tells you otherwise, you do not really have a good marriage if you are not having sex regularly and frequently. If you think everything is alright, then you should ask how it feels on his end.
You lost me when you explained how women couldn’t possibly understand men’s sex drives and then went on to explain how women think.
Sex is not a need. It is a want. Nobody is entitled to anyone else’s body for any reason ever. You have hands with which you can masturbate if your partner isn’t in the mood. Do you want your partner to consent out of pity or obligation? Gross.
‘A GUY’ was spot on. Wives, think back to why you were both interested in getting married in the first place; it is an arrangement to live with each other and respect each other for life. This includes conversation, company, affection, helping each other with whatever makes the other happy . . .and sex. Without sex, you are just flatmates. You NEED to be intimate (yes I used the word need). Jen, you really do not have the slightest idea about the male sex drive. When a man has sex with his wife, it is not the mechanical process of hand release, it is everything else; the closeness, smooth skin, smell and most importantly ‘being wanted.’ Sex makes men feel closer to their wives, but Jen you have a very cold analysis of it. If my wife asked me for sex, it would not matter about time of day/night, how tired I was or what it was that she wanted to do – I would do it without hesitation because I know what it is like to go without and it sucks! everybody’s relationship is different but, without a shadow of a doubt, every man I know ‘needs’ sex from his wife. Those that do get it are definitely happier generally. Some of the comments about ‘being a receptacle’ smack of feminism and have a tone that is reminiscent of man-hating. Unfortunately, I am in the situation where I love my wife but have gone for 23 months without, because she does not want to anymore and Jen, I can tell you that hands cannot replace the loving touch of your wife and it causes me sadness that borders on depression.
If I hear one more fucking person say that sex is a “need,” I swear I might snap. It’s not a need. It’s a fucking desire. Get over yourself already!
And sweet fucking jesus. I am so tired of the poor menz and all their poor penises. I read this whole page of comments, and it boils down to this:
Plenty of women are tired of being treated like sex vending machines, and the menz can’t handle it because the menz go “crazy” if they can’t regularly get something out of their sex vending machine. So they act like fucking toddlers and throw around all kinds of tantrums, and then rattle off excuses, and justifications for their shitty behavior.
Sweet fucking christ. These posts are about the UN-sexiest things I’ve ever read. No wonder no one wants to fuck you.
Normal women are not sexually attracted to babies, toddler, and children. So why, when you’re acting like one, are you so confused that she’s lost interest??
Also, every person in this thread who has suggested that women should “compromise” and have unwanted sex with their husbands can go to hell.
FUCK YOU. My body is not up for “compromise.” I WILL NOT ALLOW MY BODY TO BE COMPROMISED FOR YOUR SATISFACTION. Period. The fact that you would even suggest it is sick, twisted, and speaks to your entitlement issues.
You have no claims on my body, my desires, or my sexual response. I don’t care what “contract” you think I signed by being with you, by being intimate with you, or by being married to you.
I OWE YOU NOTHING. My body does not belong to you. It will never belong to you.
If you have EVER used to words “compromise” to describe why a woman should allow you to penetrate her against her desires, please escort yourself out of society and out of the gene pool.
Sex is absolutely a need. Would you like to know how I’m unequivocally positive of this fact? Because *I* decide what I need in my life, not you or any other internet blogger, casual observer, et al.
Now, let’s elaborate on a few things. “Women” do not have any responsibility or requirement to have sexual relations or intimacy, and there is a separation, with any man they do not wish to. A “wife” does. Let’s throw away the feministic musings (the misogynistic ones as well) and open-mindedly consider this.
An unmarried woman (arguments can be made for in a limited capacity, engaged women ) has no obligation to provide her S/O with sex. A woman who has made and asked for a physical, moral, ethical, financial, lifestyle, and time-sensitive commitment from her spouse is a WHOLE different ballgame. Men and women have social and ethical obligations in a marriage, but these obligations are NEVER one way, and it’s foolish that society (in the name of bodily autonomy or overly aggressive feministic values) has devolved to such.
A woman has a responsibility, physical and emotional to support, love, take care of, provide to and sacrifice for……….her child. You were expecting husband weren’t you? A woman who makes a conscious choice to begin a life in this world, shape it, change it, be held responsible for its future and ensure it survives has an obligation. A spousal relationship shares similarities; a promise and commitment were made both legal, emotional and yes under that same basis physical; hell, even as with a child a last name is involved. A mother can choose to never touch, speak or have contact with her child, but still hire a babysitter and ensure there’s food and a roof over its head all the while remaining legally the child’s mother. It won’t die, so as in some of the above responses, you could say a mother loving her child isn’t a “need” of the child (yes, this is the exact comparison some of the posters made). A child can breathe, live and die without love. If this happened, the woman would be considered a BAD mother.
A wife who commits to sharing her life, supporting and loving her husband, accepting his love, commitment, fidelity, support and time in the sense of years committing has a responsibility to share the same back. If she doesn’t, guess what? She’s a bad wife; in the same exact sense that her husband doesn’t “need” sex anymore than the child above “needs” love. But the relationship and that person as a human being will be diminished by the lack of it. A woman who is unwilling to make at minimum equivalent sacrifices to her husband as he makes for her, is absolutely selfish; and while it’s not love to view a relationship as transactional, keeping score sure as hell is a good indicator of a relationship being fair and balanced overall. It has nothing to do with a woman controlling her own body; I’m a huge supporter of women’s rights (pro-choice and anything relating to a woman controlling her own body); BUT, if she makes a conscious choice to marry a man, she does so knowing the expectation of her as a wife, whether she chooses to honor it or not. No one puts a gun to a woman’s head and forces her to marry, anymore than she’s forced to have a child. If she makes that choice, she accepts responsibilities and obligations with it.
Our society strikes down men who cheat; what about a man who isn’t getting it at home, despite being a devoted husband, lover, friend, father? Does he have to bite his tongue and deal with it because a woman’s body is her own? Yes, under law he does. But not a soul other than his wife will blame him if he strays. In that example, he’s fulfilling his marital responsibilities and obligations above reproach, his wife is not. But this goes both ways. A woman has a responsibility to take care of her child, a father has a responsibility to take care of his child, a husband has a responsibility to take care of his wife, and a WIFE has a responsibility to take care of her husband.
If at any time that balance is disrupted intentionally, someone has broken their word. My solution to this is simple. A woman absolutely cannot be legally compelled to provide sex to her husband. But then all pretense bullshit of a husband straying because his wife won’t provide needs to be dropped. If you want to be a WIFE, act like one, 100% of the way. Your husband should do the same, and if he doesn’t the same applies in reverse.
Most but not all men equate physical sexual relations with love. Regardless of the wife’s excuse (barring medical concerns), denying your partner love, intentionally, isn’t acceptable in a marriage. If you do it, you’re playing mind games, and you know it. A woman won’t always be in the mood, and yes I believe there are times “duty sex” is fair. But I also believe there are times a woman is in the mood and a man might not be, “duty sex” is fair there as well. Relationships are give and take; stop making excuses if you’re taking but aren’t giving. If you aren’t giving, don’t be surprised when your spouse reduces their level of commitment in turn. Someone above likened respecting the “obligation” to have sex as much as the obligation “not to”.
That’s a fair statement of true equality, but one side has to give, and the other side has perfectly good cause to reduce obligation/responsibility in some other area (infidelity, taking out the trash, staying out late with friends) in response. If the spouse who decides they don’t want sex ends up having their wishes respected, it should ALWAYS be understood this was imposed at the expense of the other. They sacrificed, and that sacrifice has no right to be expected anymore than sex during the original issue. Allow your partner making a personal sacrifice to become habit at your own peril.
All of this boils down a very simple concept. If a woman desires a man who will be the best he can, in all the ways he can for her and ONLY her, she needs to be the same exact thing for him. If a man desires a woman who will provide him with sex, support, love, etc in all the ways she can for him, he needs to man up and give her the same. Not with stipulations, addendums or only under circumstances he/she sees fit; but in all cases just as their spouse would expect of him. Stop with all the bullshit laws designed to limit or compromise fairness, obligation, common sense or just plain respect in relationships.
Fuck the days of “chivalry” and women placing expectations on men without reciprocating in full, “rewarding” men with sex or playing mind games. And gentlemen, fuck the days of women hopping in the back of the caddy because you bought her a steak dinner and took her to the drive-thru. If you can’t expect your needs to be met from your spouse, they can’t expect their needs to be met from you; in BOTH gender’s cases. There’s no obligation until there’s a ring, after that, you made your bed, now lie in it.
Both sides need to grow the fuck up. Give as much as you take, or leave. Note that nowhere in here did I advocate for either gender; I see both sides playing games. If it stops, there will be a lot more sex, a lot more love, and a lot less deception.
Well boo hoo guys what can I say, life isnt fair. Women pay the price for the reproduction of the species with vulnerability, pain, disfigurement, mutilation be it from childbirth, menstruation, breastfeeding and even sex (which can be painful and physically unpleasant in many cases). Men have sexual desires that leave them wanting… TOUGH LUCK. grow up and get over it. masturbate if you need to. if you had a choice before being born to either suffer the physical and emotional pain and ordeal of menstrual pain, childbirth and labour, pregnancy over a lifetime, versus not getting as much PIV sex in your life as you would like, guess what most of us would choose EVERY TIME!! Part of being a man is living with not getting sex as you would like so deal with it boys the alternative is probably far worse than you could imagine or handle
Wow! read the entire part 1 and 2 thread comments today. Good stuff, some honesty, great comments, some real haters, and some sad stories.
47 y/o male here, 49 y/o wife and one child, usual high drive for me and low drive for here with all the usual arguments in between.
I have to agree with most of the feminist comments about a woman being completely entitled to her choice if/when she has sex, however when you commit to marriage or your partner you do make a commitment to them and owe them conversation and compromise toward common happiness.
I wanted to weigh in here. I have been partner to a man whom I do not live with who has recently said to me (in regard to gradual reduction of sex over the past year), that when men don’t get enough sex they have affairs and that he is climbing the walls and is grumpy with his children as thought I am the cause. (We each have our own place, my son lives with me and his two boys live with him so his poor boys are getting his grumpiness because he takes out his frustrations on them). Basically he is trying to blackmail or put the fear in me that if I don’t put out he will find someone else.
Now on top of that he said he has not felt like doing things for me because he is sexually frustrated and does not feel giving toward me. He basically said don’t ask me to do things if I am not giving him the amount of sex her requires. By doing things he means some of the blokey stuff that I don’t have the expertise to do such as mechanical types of things or heavy lifting etc. Or running a few errands etc. I make very few demands if you could call them that on him. I am now at home due to loss of a job and he has investments so doesn’t have to work, but I do not nag to be with him every minute of the day. I leave him to do as he wishes. He is very independent and feels stifled if I want to spend too much of the day with him. I don’t actually want to spend all my days with him but as I have my own interests, but here is the clincher. When it comes to the evenings or by mid afternoon he is calling me to come over or asks me to go over there. He is very insistent about it and feels rejected if I say no. I used to enjoy my evenings with him till I realised I was not useful to him in the daytime, that he wanted me to be available in the nighttime to initiate negotiate or demand sex.
He used to make me feel very special by buying me things which I did like as I am not often able to buy myself nice things as I have a disability and it has affected my earning capacity. I reciprocated because I really enjoy buying nice gifts too for the person I love and family and friends. I had to stop doing it and pull back on how much I spent as I went into more debt to buy those things and it was impacting on providing as well as I could for my son. Fairly soon after I was unable to financially buy gifts equally to him he began to reduce buying nice things for me. To put this in perspective, he is reasonably wealthy and to buy things does not affect how he lives, whereas for me it was impacting on my ability to pay my bills etc. So even though he could afford to do those things for me if he wanted to just out of the goodness of his heart, that is when I saw this bartering system starting. I began to get upset about this as some of those niceties that I could not afford for myself made me very happy. It didn’t have to be a lot but in my circumstances is a very thoughtful thing to do and made me feel cared for. To put this into another perspective before everyone thinks I’m just materialistic, when I was younger and not so impaired and earnt more money I was with my family, previous boyfriends and friends because a) I could afford to, b) it gave me pleasure and c) I did it without expectation of a gift in return. I would never have not given a gift to someone because they couldn’t afford to buy or give one in return.
I began to resent that he was weighing up my monetary ability especially when If I bought a gift for him I would scrimp and save or be short on other things and he could not appreciated that this was difficult for me. For him buying me a gift did not dent his lifestyle or ability to pay bills. More perspective on financial differences. He has recently just spent $38K on a play car, $30K on furniture for his house. In other words he has quite a lot of surplus money. And he was getting plenty of sex by the way. I was very attracted to him and wanted as much sex as him but as time went on and he began to withold from me because I could no longer realistically afford to buy him expensive gifts. I still bought him gifts but had to spend less so I didn’t have so much debt. I felt punished that he thought I no longer deserved gifts from him because he wasn’t getting the equivalent monetary value of gifts and adjusted his accordingly. I ONLY stopped because I couldn’t afford it and it bothered I couldn’t because I like to be thoughtful with the gift and liked to make him happy and sometimes the things that he likes are too expensive.
He says to me at the start “I don’t want you to think I’m buying you” and then proceeds to buy me a watch and shoes, said things like I’ll buy you a car and blah blah blah within the first few months of dating. Now I didn’t expect any of those things and felt special that he would want to buy some nice things for me. However he very much was using the power of money to buy me as he put it because he changed his tune as the relationship got further in when I couldn’t reciprocate anymore buying stuff for him. Sorry if this is a bit repetitive. Another example was that when I was getting my hair done I used to pay quite a bit for it and had to keep stretching it out as long as three months as It was getting less affordable to color and cut it. I would get depressed as I am quite grey underneath and he would say I know you can’t afford it right now but here’s some money, go get your hair done. I was very grateful because I wanted to look nice for him and I was embarrassed to go out with him with all of my grey roots showing, especially as he was very particular in how looks are. I wanted to look decent for myself of course but I would sacrifice looking decent till I could afford it properly. Although he never directly said anything to me he often commented on other women’s appearance if it wasn’t up to scratch so I knew he had a vested interest in me looking nice. Now to relate all of this back to how our sex life began to diminish, it was plain that he was tallying up my financial abilities and I was never going to be equal there, so he used his power to give or not give based on what I could do, not on what he could afford.
As I began to get upset and point things out he denied it and tried to make out I was materialistic which certainly was not the case. I am nowhere like any of my girlfriends who seem to thrive on mountains of things, but I do appreciate a few niceties and luxuries in my life as any other person would. Particularly as I do it very hard it is especially appreciated and as I said I only started to get turned off when he began actually using his monetary power as a tool. I have been with him over 8 years and it is only in the past year that I really just had enough and started to only do it if I really wanted to, the point being that I had always wanted to happily until he began this monetary blackmail of sorts. Then he accuses me of witholding sex. My feelings were hurt and he strung me out for days of arguing without even trying to see my POV or he would listen and agree so that I would relax enough to feel like sex again only to apply this monetary system and other manipulative ploys on me keeping a scorecard of things where he helped me and then saying what do you do for me. I pointed out that he rarely wanted my help even when I offered, highly prized his independence and that I helped him as much as he actually let me. So another situation where I could not win and he could look like this awesome guy whereas I do nothing, and somehow use him for his money. We both take care of our own bills and he does pay more often for dinners because I cannot always afford to go out and so he says he is doing me a favour because he pays for dinner even though he wants my company. And yes I do cook and have him over for meals and don’t rely on him just to take me out. I began to not want to go out for meals and movies those types of things that we both enjoy because I didn’t want him to laud it over me that he had paid. As I said I have reciprocated within my financial abilities but I cannot equal this man’s wealth.
Night times come as I mentioned earlier and I began to dread seeing him as I was the hurting continued and knew he expected sex. I tried to keep him happy as many women here have done so till I couldn’t anymore out of ending up feeling like only what he wanted mattered. He never resolved any of our issues. I said to him I can’t help that I don’t have a lot of money but please don’t punish me for it. When he did buy me gifts he made sure everyone knew about it, to show what a great guy he was. I felt rather humiliated by this as it then started to be a spectacle of what a great guy he was buying this poor downtrodden girl something nice. It made me feel sick. As the sex declined he got worse. I was to not to ask him to do things, any help at all if sex was not on offer. So to the men here that think their wives and girlfriends have manipulated them, I often wonder about this scorecard system he had been keeping unbeknownst to me regarding things outside the bedroom. Then it got inside the bedroom.
I have always gotten along wonderfully with his children, always giving them time to listen and ask about them, their school and what interests them. His younger son was so starved of an ear that I lost count of how many times he raced to me to tell me about all the things that his dad took no interest in. Yes it was sometimes tedious but I wanted to. I took an interest in his gaming just as I had my own son, whatever he wanted to talk about or aspired to I encouraged him. The other son being older just enjoyed our converstions in general. Recently the younger son wanted to talk about star wars movies, some new movies coming out and show me some music that he liked listening to on the tv via youtube. I happily listened and took an interest, but then my partner started getting annoyed because he wasn’t getting any attention from me and demanded his son give him the remote control. His son still sat and talked another ten minutes but upon going to his room he said ‘good chat’ to me in appreciation.
As for my son there was no animosity but no real interest in my son from my partner. Neutral you could say. I resented this too. I wanted to be appreciated for my efforts as I gave the time and attention to his son as if he were my own son and he put no time in.
Let me sum this up. This man of mine I do not hassle to spend his days with me, I make very few ‘demands’ as he calls them on him, I have given to him as best I could in affording gifts, I treated his children with respect and time, we had a very good sex life for a very long time, I accepted that we will not be the type of couple that will ever live together but thought we could have an acceptable compromise for me which was to take care of each other as best we can and over this time I am blackmailed for my lack of earning capacity, unappreciated for giving time to his children as he would get jealous, and then told I am witholding when I have had enough of the disrespect. I am so hurt and broken over this.
So I said to him I will not have sex at all unless I actually want it and I have not been wanting it due to all of this nonsense and that is exactly why we have not had frequent sex. He said I don’t love him, what have I done, I tell him and then he says but I don’t want to do things for you or spend money on you if I don’t get sex. I pointed out that sex was abundant for a long time before it dwindled when he had already started his antics and he said yes but if I don’t get sex I can’t give. So I said it was alright for me to give and keep trying to keep you happy even though you were using the money business over me and making me feel ashamed to not have much money. He ignores this and starts on again that men have affairs etc etc. I said well go have one then or leave if you’re not happy. He doesn’t want to do that but of course will be forced to in the end. And so this threat of him leaving is supposed to make me feel like having more sex out of fear, no!!! I am even more repulsed by his manipulative nature. So then he says well don’t ask me for anything, we are just friends and I don’t do things for friends. I said yes you do, and he said only because they do things for me. I point out that because of how controlling he is he actually does not want my help in doing things for him and values his independence so much and then makes out I am awful, you do nothing for me and I do so much for you.
As I’m writing this I cannot believe that I kept giving of myself for so long when I was feeling so terrible. The saddest thing of all is the sex has always been special. The best I had ever had and he also said I was the lamorghini of sex and could never get enough and also said he never felt the feelings he has with me with any other woman. Apparently according to him, men have a rating system of women and their vaginas which I then felt was disturbing because I am a lamborghini purely because of my vagina and not because he loves the connection with me that comes with making love. I am very upset that he has managed to turn me off something I loved and cherished so much. He was always a considerate lover in terms of pleasing me, but now feel used degraded and rated in many areas of my life. Physically I actually still enjoy the sex as I have a high sex drive but mentally I have checked out. It is now fucking and not making love. And as he reminded me, we have now only had it 3 times in 4 months.
Do all men have this absurd rating system? Not just in sex? I know we all do to a degree because we don’t want to be giving and getting nothing in return and vice versa but are men secretly calcualting like this all the time completely unawares to the woman they are with. It has completely turned me off men and any gestures of kindness toward me seem to now be either narcissistic because they made him look like a great guy or he had hidden ulterior motives and to whip out the scorecard when he was unhappy no matter if things were his fault or not.
I think the one thing men don’t understand is that women continue to give sex to their man even when they are not always happy to do so, and the hurt has been going on for some time BEFORE the sex dwindles. Does a man never look at what he has done for her to eventually not enjoy sex as she feels used, unappreciated or manipulated by her bloke in other ways.
I would appreciate some more input as I don’t understand what men expect of women.
Look, I may be old fashioned but your either committed fully to the marriage or you aren’t. If you aren’t maybe it’s time to pack up. I believe selfhood is over rated. Too much energy and focus in the wrong places when marriage thrives in being equally committed to making eachother person happy. There’s no good reason to deny your spouse anything. I think a husband should be entitled to sex and anything else he wants the wife should be open and accepting to. Out of respect, out of love, and kindness, even if she doesn’t feel like it. As far as I’m concerned, once she’s married, resisting can only bring grief and anguish in the long run, she is his now and should have no part in making decisions around sex if he demands it, she should find a way to pleasure him.
Good grief! Let’s cut to the chase. Marriage is about protection of children, financial issues AND sex. Here’s a question for all the women who posted here complaining about husbands’ attempts to initiate sex with them. If you don’t want to have sex with him, what crazy thought was in your mind when you married him? If it was about money, then you prostituted yourself when you got married.
I believe that marriage as a legal process should begin with a one year test period at the end of which the marriage is automatically annulled unless both spouses sign a legal document agreeing to make the marriage permanent. That should help sort this mess out.
Why is it anyway that men think PIV intercourse should be a regular, lifelong activity just because that’s what THEY want? Why this assumption that just because they CAN do it all the time, they SHOULD do it all the time when clearly the other half of the human race does NOT want to do it all the time? What is the origin of this arrogant, self-centered, and patently false belief that their desires should supersede someone else’s bodily autonomy?
It’s a self-evident truth that an adult individual always has the legal and moral right to decide what is done to his or her own body. So the legal and moral right of Person A (male or female) to NOT have something done to his or her body ALWAYS supersedes the desire of Person B to do something to Person A’s body.
It’s also a self-evident truth that many women, if not the majority, do not want PIV intercourse “performed” on their bodies either some of the time or all of the time that men want to “perform” it. If this weren’t true, men wouldn’t have to expend so much effort to persuade or outright coerce women to have PIV intercourse with them because women would seek out PIV as frequently and as enthusiastically as men do.
What’s morally unjustifiable is that, despite these truths, men insist that women continue to submit to regular, unwanted PIV intercourse from them. It never, ever, EVER occurs to men that regular, unwanted PIV intercourse in a pair bond should NOT be the norm because women don’t want it that way. They always, always, ALWAYS expect the norm to be what men want. And, in this case, what men want is especially reprehensible because they want their desire to do something to Person A’s body to supersede Person A’s moral and legal right NOT to have something done to her body.
Now, the typical response from men is that women who don’t want regular, lifelong PIV intercourse should just choose not to get married or be in a “romantic” relationship, which is laughable because, if given a truly free choice, MOST women would probably not choose regular, lifelong PIV intercourse, and most men would have only extremely limited access to PIV or no access at all. The problem is that women CAN’T make a truly free choice as long as the only socially and legally sanctioned adult pair bonds available to them are sexual bonds. The dominant (male) cultural expectation that women should form life partnerships with men and that these partnerships SHOULD include lifelong, regular PIV intercourse pressures the vast majority of women into accepting unwanted, regular PIV under threat of losing the social and economic safety net that is only available to sexually partnered women. Until women, en masse, can decide not to engage in relationships with PIV intercourse and NOT experience a decline in social support, standard of living, physical safety, etc. as a result, then men must acknowledge that their expectations of regular, unwanted PIV are morally reprehensible and unjustifiable.
I have to wonder what would happen if women the world over DID assert their right to bodily autonomy and just stopped consenting to PIV intercourse except on the rare occasions that they truly wanted it. Would men the world over “allow” that and just leave women alone? Or is it more likely they would start physically forcing themselves on women en masse? If you honestly think about the answer to that question, then you begin to see how little bodily autonomy women actually have and how morally repugnant this situation is.
“But I do them all, because I love and respect my spouse… how is that ANY different from her making a sacrifice to help me with something that is important to me (and sex is VERY important to me)”
You want your wife to “make a sacrifice” and… Let you have sex with her? Dude that’s gross.
You want to use your wife for sex- for a warm place to put your pecker.
Sex is supposed to be something you do together, not something she lets you do to her because you clipped some coupons.
You claim that you live and resilient your spouse but you want to use her body for sex, because sex is VERY important to you. (Apparently more important than her feelings or rights of anything.)
You say of a woman denying sex to her husband, that she is basically saying *‘I don’t give a sh!t what my spouse wants or needs, I’m going to do what I want’* and then ask *… is that a good basis for a loving and sharing relationship?*
Isn’t expending your wife to have sex with you when she’d rather not pretty much saying, ‘I don’t give a sh!t what my spouse wants or needs, I’m going to do what I want’… Hmmm…. I’m going to go with yep.
If you’re wife and you are not having sex as much as you feel is healthy for you and your marriage, you need to start communicating and working on things- NOT press her to do it because it’s important to you.
Your wife should be more important. Always.