This is a guest post by Julie Bindel
As a lesbian who has lived in London for most of my adult life I can safely say the police do not usually display prejudice towards the gay community, especially in recent years. On gay Pride marches officers on duty can appear to be having as much fun as everyone else, and take seriously any verbal or physical threats to the marchers from passers by.
But it would appear that when the insults come from Islamists it is a different story. And it would also appear that even gay white liberals, who should know better, are playing their part in covering up a deeply unpleasant tide of Muslim homophobia currently festering in the East End of London.
Last autumn, stickers began to appear all over the East End proclaiming that the area is now a “Gay-Free Zone.” “And Fear Allah: Verily Allah is Severe in Punishment.” The gay human rights journalist Johann Hari noticed one outside of the apartment block in which he lived, and said in his report about it, “I’d like to say I’m shocked – but anybody who lives there knows this has been a long time coming.”
But the plot thickens. Whilst it was known by gay activists from the offset that the stickers were the work of Islamist homophobes, Rainbow Hamlets, the forum for Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgendered people in Tower Hamlets, claim that it was a gay man, one of the organisers of the forthcoming gay pride party in the area who was behind the campaign after Raymond Berry was outed as a former member of the English Defence League (EDL).
Berry soon resigned from the East End Gay Pride Committee (EEGP) and a statement was issued confirming that the gay pride party, scheduled for April, would still go ahead. But other gay groups in the area did not agree and other gay groups withdrew support from the event, accusing EEGP of “stigmatising” Muslims and of having links to far-right agitators. The party was cancelled.
Police then claimed that it was the EDL that put up the stickers in order to unfairly malign the Muslim community and stir up further divisions and hatred in the East End. Having failed to take definitive action against homophobic Islamists in the past, police turned its attention away from the real perpetrators altogether, as it has since been revealed that the EDL were not involved in the sticker incidents. Further, according to gay human rights activist Peter Tatchell, the police have known all along that it was instigated by homophobic Muslim youths.
When Tatchell spoke at an event hosted by The Gay and Lesbian Humanist Association recently he was asked how he thought that conflicts between the LGBT and Muslim community in the wake of the sticker incident could be resolved.
The audience was visibly shocked as he revealed that the police knew that an Asian youth was responsible for this homophobic act weeks ago. He stated that the police had CCTV footage of the youth being handed these stickers by extremists outside The East London Mosque. Furthermore, Tatchell revealed that the groups Out East and Rainbow Hamlets also knew that this youth was responsible. It had been revealed to them in a public meeting and they had been sworn to secrecy for fear of upsetting the Muslim community. There were cries of “shame” and “disgraceful” from the audience.
East London, which has the highest Muslim population in London, has seen a significant increase in homophobic attacks in recent years. The two are not unconnected – a recent survey by Gallup found that no British Muslims would say that being lesbian or gay is “morally acceptable.”
Some gay spokespeople are still in denial about the sticker incident despite all the evidence that some Islamic extremists operate at high levels within the area. They appear to be more concerned with being branded as racist or ‘Islamophobic’ than they do to protect their own human rights.
I have witnessed homophobia in the area myself. On the way to dinner with a group of female friends last year I was handed a leaflet by a young man in traditional Islamic dress warning me that gay men were out to corrupt ‘our’ children
The East London Mosque is supposedly opposed to homophobia, with a spokesperson recently stating that, “We stand together with our fellow citizens against all forms of hatred, including homophobia.” Despite this, it has a bad record, including hosting talks by homophobic preachers.
The sticker campaign is not, in and of itself, gravely serious. It is deeply offensive, and of course can be viewed as incitement to hatred and prejudice. But this is not an isolated incident. Firstly, this is the second time the stickers have been distributed, and second, it comes after a spate of violent anti-gay attacks including violence and harassment. A number of gay men who had lived peacefully in the area until these attacks have actually moved out as a result of the atmosphere of intimidation and the fear of assault. What is gravely serious however is the apparent reluctance of the police in areas where political Islamists operate to intervene when they stir up prejudice against another minority group.
Alex Hopkins, a campaigning journalist and proud member of the gay community says he is “furious” that gay people have been treated in such a disgraceful manner in order to appease homophobes and bigots.
“The really logical question is: do we want groups like this representing us as a community,” asks Hopkins. “Do we really want groups who have hidden vital information advocating for us? Do we want groups who have continued to propagate a lie pretending to defend our rights?”
Hopkins is right to be angry with members of his own community for appeasing right wing homophobes, but our main concern should be about the apparent softly-softly approach of the police involved in this shameful affair.
Too Much To Say For Myself 
I’ve witnessed homophobia (and been the subject of it) in Manchester. And all over the place, let’s be honest. From white men mostly. Occasionally from white women. Never from Muslims, despite the fact that for a while I did advice work in a predominanty Muslim community
And your local C of E/methodist/fill in as applicable church is probably full of homophobes – I know a lesbian Christian who was driven out of the church she attended when she came out.
I also have a lesbian friend who is constantly being targetted by the EDL on twitter because they are actively trying to recruit lesbians and gay men. But if you look at the things the actual EDL say (not the marketing department) you’ll see that they are largely homophobic misogynist thugs.
If individual muslims are homophobic, then they should be subject to the same legal sanctions as anyone else who is homophobic. So it is unacceptable if the police refuse to investigate – though I have to say that when I was publicly subject to homophobic abuse being shouted at me on a train, I was told no members of the British Transport Police were available to attend, and my fellow passenger all stood round and refused to intervene when I contacted the driver. So yet again, not just muslims.
So it’s not just muslims. As we all know. It’s not even particularly Muslims – look at the sentence given to the woman who kicked Ian Baynham to death and then boasted about it. 7 years.
I don’t care what anyone thinks – I care what they do. There are plenty of people who think being gay is ‘morally unacceptable’. If they keep it to themselves and don’t frighten the horses, well I’m not the thought police.
However the problem of the ‘muslims are homophobic’ stance is that it feeds into racist organisations like the EDL and BNP, and anyone who says it doesn’t, is either naive or lying. You don’t have to be a loony wet liberal to think that.
If someone is homophobic, their religion and motivation is irrelevant. The problem is the damage they do.
Meanwhile the majority of hate crimes in this country are motivated by religion or racism. Guess who’s the target of them? I’d rather be walking round the streets as a fairly obvious looking white lesbian than an asian woman in a Hijab any day of the week. A lot less scary
I have been following the story fairly closely (and have even taken part in several walk around the area to spread some love) but I must say that I don’t quite recognise all that Ms Bindel is talking about. There is certainly a level of distortion in the way she is presenting the situation.
How can she, for example, claim that the police turn its eyes from the real perpetrators when an arrest (of a yound Asian men – presumably Muslim and certainly not EDL) was made in February, the extact time when the stickers started to appear?
As for “a tide” of Muslim homophobia, I think it would be good to keep some degree of perspective here. There are about 30,000 Muslims living in the area. Apart from a few incidents (the gravity of which should not be ignored) and the episode of the stickers, what is happening in east London is by no mean a tide.
This sort of article is not helpful.
I agree – the fact is that in a climate of Islamaphobia, saying Muslims are homophobic, is always going to be taken as carte blanche to discriminate against Muslims. And it will be used by groups such as the EDL to bolster their cause, as their active attempts to recruit lesbians and gay ment show.
Personally I know who I’d rather be stuck in a lift with out of a random Muslim and a random EDL member.
Anyway, just to prove my point, here’s a story from the Daily Mail.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-553008/Muslims-fury-forces-schools-shelve-anti-homophobia-storybooks-5-year-olds.html
Two primary schools have withdrawn storybooks about same-sex relationships after objections from Muslim parents.
Up to 90 gathered at the schools to complain about the books which are aimed at pupils as young as five.
A spokesman for Bristol City Council said: “All Bristol schools have a legal duty to report and deal with homophobic harassment as part of the curriculum since April 2007.”
She said the council had “temporarily withdrawn” the use of the materials in question and was liaising with various groups to “ensure that the topic can be addressed in an inclusive manner in the curriculum”.
Ben Summerskills of gay rights group Stonewall said: “The small number of parents who make a fuss will cause children to think there is something wrong.”
Now here’s the same story, without Muslims.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-441542/Four-year-olds-gay-fairytales-school.html
Schools are teaching children as young as four about same-sex relationships to comply with new gay rights laws, it emerged yesterday.
They are introducing youngsters to homosexuality using a series of story books in preparation for controversial regulations coming into force next month.
However Simon Calvert, spokesman for the Christian Institute, said: “The predictions of those who said the repeal of Section 28 would result in the active promotion of homosexuality in schools are coming true.”
His insitute is also warning that the new equality laws would lead to schools being “compelled” to provide books with gay themes and risk litigation if they do not.
Meanwhile the Christian Voice group has vowed to track down the books and organise a protest to ban them.
Director Stephen Green said: “The arrogance of people like Elizabeth Atkinson, using children as guinea pigs is outrageous and thoroughly wicked.
“I am astonished at this project and we are trying to find out where these schools are to empower parents to put pressure on them to remove the books.”
Spot the difference! Homophobia is BAD but only when brown people do it.
I’ve been living in the East End now for almost 20 years, and I really don’t recognise the climate of homophobia that some people are depicting in their postings about these posters. Nor do some friends of mine who live in Bethnal Green. Certainly the impression given by some writers on the topic, that gay people are fleeing the east end, seems a little fanciful; a few people may have left, but I doubt it’s happened in significant enough numbers to make a difference to the statistics.
Of course there’s homophobia; there’s a fair bit of it about, and from much more than just one community. When I stand at the bus stop in my leather gear on the way to a gay club in Mile End, the worst looks I get don’t seem to be from people who look like they’re anything to do with the mosque on the corner. But I’ve not heard any verbal abuse for the best part of a decade.
The borough with the largest increase in homophobic crime according to the Met is Islington – noticeably rather less islamic than Tower Hamlets. Why’s that? Does anyone know? Or have a theory? Or even care, if they can’t simply portray it as one community vs another? But we should be asking these questions.
We should ask too why people trot out a survey that says no muslims approve of gay sex when it’s clear that anything that comes up with a “0%” answer is obviously flawed. It’s like saying that because you ask around your office and no one’s a christian, there are zero christians in the UK. There are gay muslims; unless you’re going to deny that there are, or insist that they don’t even approve of themselves, that zero figure is obviously not one that you can extrapolate to a whole population with any degree of certainty.
The right number might be “small” but when dealing with sensitive issues like community relations, it’s not helpful to say “no one in this community accepts us” when you know that the only reason you have a figure of zero is a statistical quirk.
What disturbs me very much about all this is the climate of division that some people seem to be going out of their way to foster in the area now; we won’t beat homophobia – wherever it comes from – by resorting to paranoid conspiracy theories.
When the Chariots sauna had a fire recently, the tone of the comments on one gay news site was shocking, with people saying it was probably arson by the muslim community, and if it was, those who’d caused the pride march to be cancelled would have given the green light to such attacks.
Is that sort of finger pointing and name calling really going to solve anything?
There are plenty of problems with homophobia, but they’re not just from one community; it wasn’t a muslim who kicked someone to death in Trafalgar Square, was it?
We need to be grown up, to stop immediately pointing fingers when bad things happen, to stop believing in conspiracy theories, and above all to talk to each other.
“it has since been revealed that the EDL were not involved in the sticker incidents” Source?
Worth reading…
And (to avoid the spamulator).
http://www.newint.org/blog/majority/2011/03/17/politics-of-phobias/
Polly, your argument consists exclusively of straw men. Does Julie Bindel say “it’s just Muslims” who are homophobes? No. Does Julie Bindel say “homophobia is BAD but only when brown people do it”? No. Indeed, that is provably false: she has spent decades campaigning against homophobia by white people, as anyone with access to Google can see, and you should apologise.
You are arguing against a position Julie doesn’t hold, which may be satisfying for you, but doesn’t get us anywhere.
Do you honestly think that if Christian fundamentalists were covering Henley with calls for gay people to be killed, and 0 percent of Christians there said gay people were acceptable, Julie would be any less vocal or any less outraged? Do you honestly think that if Jewish fundamentalists were covering Golder’s Green with calls for gay people to be killed, and 0 percent of Jews there said gay people were acceptable, Julie would be any less vocal or any less outraged? If so, you haven’t read any of Julie’s work.
Nigel, I think this “climate of division” argument is really interesting. Islamic fundamentalists call for the killing of gay people – and the gay people who argue back, and say these attitudes need to be rooted out, are the ones accused of creating “division.” It puts the onus for creating division in entirely the wrong place. The divisive ones aren’t gay people who want to live normal and free lives – it’s fundamentalists who want to stop them. If you want to stop the division, stop the fundamentalists – which is what Julie is trying to do.
I congratulate Julie and the few others who have commented on this, and exposed the elephant in the room. That the police should try to cover up the fact that the sticker campaign was the work of Asian youths is disgraceful in itself; I find it incredible that some on the fringe of the Left try to label anyone who exposes this as a hate monger or ‘fascist’. (Fine, so be it). Anyone who, like me, went to rip the labels off lamp posts and shop fronts in areas like Vallance Road would have also noticed the other yellow placards and stickers, calling for total submission to Allah; residents will also be aware that homophobia is but one manifestation of Islamist extremism. One local muslim councillor faced death threats and constant intimidation for refusing to wear a head dress; an RE teacher’s face was slashed by a gang of youths for teaching muslim girls about other religions.
Meanwhile, Rainbow Hamlets, an organisation which has been appointed by the local borough (not the local LGBT community), and whose spokesperson, Rebecca Shaw, has lived for the past 20 years in Grays, 20 miles away, makes a joint statement with the East London Mosque about combatting homophobia – as if the years of hate preaching, calling for the deaths of gays and jews, had never happened.
It is a moral necessity to expose hatred wherever we see it, and not to hide the facts. It is not anti-muslim to do so, unless you really are stupid and fear that all muslims are extremists. Only then can we deal with the heart of the matter.
To those who put up stickers inviting people to help themselves to love, (without mentioning the G word) – very well; but we really need a stronger message saying that LGBT people are welcome in the borough, and if the world is too small for you, then move elsewhere. The Amsterdam police are considering putting plain-clothes agents (‘lokhomo’s’) on the street posing as gay couples, to entrap homophobes. Maybe we should consider this idea.
So you don’t think people who immediately say “it was muslims wot set fire to the sauna” and “people who stopped east end gay pride caused this fire” aren’t contributing to a climate of division?
I honestly don’t see how they can be doing anything other. There is fault on both sides – and there are also good, honest people trying to make things better on both sides.
How can jumping to conclusions when something bad happens, without any evidence, be anything other than divisive?
Of course homphobia needs to be rooted out. But that doesn’t not excuse people who are deliberately trying to stoke up tensions between communities. And honestly, I can’t see what else you can call it when people do the sort of things I referred to.
grr. “doesn’t excuse” not “doesn’t not”
Johann: I’ve just posted two links about the “o%” statistic, and we all know surveys are very easy to manipulate.
MUSLIMS are not covering the East End with stickers. Even if it is proven that they were placed there by people who are muslims – how many muslims did it? Well it only takes one – and as Nigel pointed out there circa 30,000 muslims in the area. So your argument is false, but if you want examples of christians distributing homophobic literature can I suggest you go to dailymail.co.uk and put ‘christian homophobia’ into their search engine?
(links up next to avoid the dreaded wordpress spamulator).
Of the other murders of gay men I can think of recently, Michael Causer and Ian Baynham, a black afro caribbean man, a white woman and two white men were the perpetrators. So we are to declare anyone who meets these descriptions homophobic are we?
Julie may have spend decades campaigning against homophobia by white people, but I’ve never seen her say is it BECAUSE they are white. Or black – in the case of one of those involved in killing Ian Baynham. Indeed if she had, she would have been called racist, I’m sure.
The pieces I linked – and many, many more have pointed out that in actual fact your statistics (and Julie’s) are bullshit Johann. I don’t know why it’s so hard to say “I was wrong”.
In no particular order…
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1089582/Christian-police-officer-sacked-misconduct-offering-officers-cure-homosexuality.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1368152/Apple-gay-rights-groups-approving-iPhone-app-cure-homosexuality.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1222861/Pensioner-complained-gay-pride-march-warned-police-hate-crime.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-403815/Christian-faces-court-offensive-gay-festival-leaflets.html
etc, etc, etc, oh well I can’t post links about homophobic christians all night, I’ve got the EDL to protest tomorrow….
This reminds me of when a woman wrote to the Oldham evening paper to say that “Hamas” spraypainted on the wall of the local Kwiksave was proof positive that all local Asian people are terrorists.
I live in a small town between Oldham and Rochdale (approx. 18% Muslim population in each town) and have never heard of any homophobic comments from Muslims.
However, the vicar of the local church was driven from the parish for being gay (and having an Asian partner.) When he announced from the pulpit, in tears, that he could not deal with all the homophobic abuse he was receiving, there were people in church who clapped and some who shouted, “Yes!!”
The EDL are a much bigger threat to gay people.
But Polly, isn’t part of the issue that in the cases you link to the police or whoever responded and dealt with them appropriately, whereas what Julie, Johann and others are saying is that in this instance the police have tried to cover it up.
Also, I didn’t read Julie as saying that all muslims were doing this, or that all muslims are homophobes. Indeed, if I had read that into it I wouldn’t have posted the article.
As one who lived in the heart of the East End for over eight years, I feel qualified to comment.
Muslim men HATE HATE HATE females, any females, but particularly non-Muslim females. They do not care if you get beaten up on the street, they stand around and watch. Yes, that actually happened to me.
Muslim women are my sisters, I have absolute support for them. I still have Muslim female friends, even though I no longer live in the area. I have always done support and activism with them.
Muslim males are misogynists, so of course they would be homophobes. Why is that such a leap of faith? So are white-dude-misogynists, homophobes. So are xtain religious extremists homophobes and misogynists. It goes with the territory. It’s not a teeny-weeny percentage of Muslim males, it is every Muslim male I have ever met.
So yeah, I can totally believe the homophobia going on, given the overt misogyny.
As a gay man who s been living in Hackney for 8 years, i also completely disagree with that wave of homophobia threatening us out there. Maybe some gay people left because they did feel threatened, but the number of young LGBT newcomers to the neighbourhood as also been astronomic. And so did the gentrification of that area.
Potential rise of homophobic attack could also be analysed in the context of huge influx of LGBTs. And that s not even taking into account class issues…
I am much more shocked at the comments left on pink news about the fire accident at the gay sauna, then by all those stickers. There is very nasty smell of racism in the gay community . The fact that there was more articles written by “proud gay community members” such as Julie Bindel, Johann Hari or Hopkins about why the Pride was cancelled instead of looking at how an EDL organiser and his friends got to organise that event in the first place, and the lack of response from Pride London and other groups when the truth about the organiser(s) was revealed in the first place is simply astonishing.
“a recent survey by Gallup found that no British Muslims would say that being lesbian or gay is “morally acceptable.”
How can an article be taken seriously when it has this kind of ridiculous statements ?! Maybe J.B should add ” as, obvioulsy there is no gay, lesbian or trans muslims” . The only time i visited this blog was to comment on fake statistics used to stereotype the lives of sex workers. I guess we re just going one level lower tonight …..
An open letter to London Pride and other groups and individuals who supported East End Gay Pride, by local queers
http://nonameasofyet.wordpress.com/
“Those of us who love reading and writing believe that being a writer is a sacred trust. It means telling the truth. It means being incorruptible. It means not being afraid, and never lying.”
And never lying.
Even more aneddotal evidence for you. I moved into the East End in 1989 and have lived here ever since. Not only that, but I work in the East End. I don’t have a car and I don’t even ride a bike so I walk everywhere night and day. And I do not live in a nice middle class street. I live on a big housing estate. Added to this, I teach in a college in the East End and most of those who I teach are Muslim. I’ve taught there for about 9 years now and in that time, I have not encountered a single expression or act of hatred towards me on account of being gay from a Muslim student or member of staff. I’m really not making this up. I even occasionally include representations of gay and lesbian people into the materials I use in class to get some discussion going.
I am definitely not discounting other people’s experiences of homophobia in the East End, but I am not able to recognise emotive language like tidal waves, tsunamis, surges or epidemics of homophobia and even more offesnsively, Islamic homophobia.
The vast majority of Mulsim people I believe are just like the vast majority of other people, they want to get on with their lives and live as peacefully as possible with their neighbours, whoever they may be.
And please everyone stop talking about Islamic this and that. If you know people well who happen to be born into the Muslim faith, you will know that this religion expresses itself in a infinite number of complex ways. It is not a big monolithic, homogenous block of something. It is rich, complex and very interesting, just like all the other great faiths and none.
Incidentally, I recently was the ‘victim’ of a rather unpleasant homophobic incident in the East End , and the perpetrator is not a Muslim. I reported the young man and identified him and had witnesses. But I am not going to go around saying there is a problem with non-Muslims.
I learnt one fundamental thing as a gay man way back in my teens; all prejudice and all bigotry is wrong beacuse it bloody well hurts. Homophobia is everywhere across the UK and that is the challenge we face. Thank God, there is also love, tolerence and understanding alongside.
Luca,
“Potential rise of homophobic attack could also be analysed in the context of huge influx of LGBTs. ”
So if queers are getting attacked it is their own fault for moving there?
Remarkable, absolutely remarkable.
BTW – i moved out of Bethnal Green in December, to give a little context here.
This ‘debate’ is beginning to sound like a stuck record, let’s call this particular record ‘willed blindness’, or perhaps ‘let’s not see the wood for the trees’. The English Defence League nearly managed to march (MARCH not ‘party’) through Tower Hamlets under the cover of LGBT rights and as part of the LGBT community. That is a terrifying prospect and should be of deep concern to all members of the LGBT community. Whatever the rumours of who-knew-what about the perpetrators of homophobic stickers (wrong, threatening, abhorrent), getting sucked into the divide and rule agenda that is currently sweeping across Europe, pitting Muslims against so-called bone fide ‘Europeans’, cannot be the way forward for the LGBT community. As Polly and Luca rightly point out, homophobic beliefs are to be found in all walks of life, all religions and none and in various different guises. Homophobic beliefs do not discriminate, neither should we when tackling their most violent and destructive manifestations.
Interesting article re the way in which the police handle homophobic attacks, which is the essential component of the article and isn’t in any way garnering a discussion on muslim = hatred of western society. To say so is to derail.
I’ve always known that the EDL and BNP will latch on to any political hot potato and make it their own. They utilise superbly the phrase ‘divide and conquer’. It’s what these groups do best simply because other groups within the poticial sphere (and the police) are afraid to confront it face on with a united agenda.
While it appears distasteful to recognise that within religious organisations homophobia exists, as does racism, it does noone any good by adopting a head in the sand approach.
We have, within my own constituency party, tried hard to tackle the ‘what is it to be English?’ and the ‘immigration?’ questions. We have lively debates about it, none of them offensive, but still we can’t reach common ground. I know this last paragraph is a bit of a derail but it is there to show that it’s difficult to reach a consensus of opinion when sensitive subjects are raised.
Good article.
Some interesting arguments. Every religion is sexist though, so feminists need to be careful that they don’t play into the hands of the far-right by singling out muslims for blame alone.
“So if queers are getting attacked it is their own fault for moving there?
Remarkable, absolutely remarkable.”
Bit of a stretch there …. there is more homophobic harrassement because there are more gay visibility, the same way that the neighbourhood that has the the most homophobia related crime is Soho. It has nothing to do with blaming the victim.
I wish I had the energy to send out a more constructive response right now, but I have better things to do with my day which involves careful and informed writing, contrarily to this article. So I just want to ask a few questions…
Why does it not seem to bother you, Julie, Johann et.al, that the EDL feels comfortable hijacking LGBT events/discourses ? I find it extremely disturbing that ‘our community’ sees no fundamental problem in the vested interest of these racist thugs, and this indeed reflects directly on the racism in the LGBT community. This is the problem ‘we’ really should be addressing.
How can you base your article on rumours and lies ? No-one ever claimed they saw the EDL put up stickers, some considered it a possibility before also not engaging in some racist witch hunt. As for the cover up, if it was announced at a public meeting, how was this a cover up ? And your info comes from what twitter and vague rumours ?
And the studies about 0% of Muslims finding being gay ‘not morally acceptable’ ? I mean really, you’re comfortable using such a blatantly tricked statistic ? Level-headed journalism indeed.
Oh and FIY, I have lived in the East End for over 7 years. I have friends that have been attacked for a variety of reasons by a variety of people, just like everywhere else. I would appreciate it if people who neither live work or otherwise engage with their neighbours and rest of the community in the East End would just shut up.
Julie, Johann, Cath, Put A Bird On It.
I am shocked and appalled at some of the comments on this thread. Is it self-loathing, or merely a desire to be seen as more right-on than thou?
I’m still working on a source for the assertion that it has been proven that Muslims put the posters up and not the EDL. Thus far I haven’t seen anybody back up that claim. Details would be nice.
*waiting, not working.
Julie, we need dialogue. You use emotive language, is this a devise to shut the discussion down rather than respond to the points that have been made by Polly, Nigel and Rosaline?
Also, I suspect it is not honest of you to say that you are ‘shocked’ and ‘appalled’ at the comments. Your evident dislike of ‘white male liberals’ ( a presumption) would suggest a strong familiarity with such comments.
I for one, am not at all ‘shocked’ and ”appalled’ by your comments because I encounter them almost every day on line and in the media, and in everyday life as they constitute the dominant discourse in Western Europe today. A discourse that especially problematises Islam has entered the mainstream.
One more point, with reference to your video, I am not sure if you have a problem with religion per se, or the fundamentalist strains within it. Doesn’t the description of the Abramic god that you read out suggest the former?
Excellent video. I, as a white feminist, also stand by my muslim sisters. When being selected as a candidate for the May elections, I said that, if I won the seat and became a local councillor, I would never accept a male muslim viewpoint that would be harmful to women, regardless of the so-called ‘sensitivities’ surrounding the ‘issue’ of so-called racism. It’s not racist – religion is a system not a race. I value the wellbeing of women and children far above those of a patriarchial religious system.
What also shocks me is that the Guardian allowed the word ‘hysterical’ to be used in the review of a woman’s book.
But then left wing liberals have been defending patriarchy for centuries. I’m currently reading ‘Pornography, men possessing women’ by Dworkin. Not only literary liberal men but liberal women too, de Beauvoir and Carter, defended the horribly sadistic Marquis de Sade.
I’m shocked and appalled that we’ve come to a point where members of one community automatically point the finger at another, in the absence of any evidence, as happened over the fire at Chariots.
How would we, as a gay community, feel if the first response to a missing child was for people to say “I bet it’s something to do with the gays” ?
Whatever the history that led to them, how can anyone think it’s healthy when those attitudes are floating around? Surely they can’t be anything other than a barrier to dialogue – and yes, the same holds true for both sides of an argument.
We’re told that there are “zero” people in the Muslim community who accept us, yet both logic and the evidence of our own eyes and ears tell us otherwise.
And in the face of all this, yes, there is homophobia. Yes, it needs to be tackled.
But comments like the ones I referred to above above make me – and others – deeply suspicious of the motives of some who protest loudly that they are thinking only of the good of our community.
Is this self-loathing? Or desperately right on? Not as far as I can see.
It seems common sense; we are not going to combat homophobia in the Islamic community by cowing people with a show of brute force on the streets. We will fight it by changing attitudes. And that, it seems to me, is not just something that only one side needs to do.
It is quite obvious that this attack on Islam is also connected to race and it is not possible to look at the attack on Islam outside of the context of race. Anyone who denies the relationship of the two is either in denial, naive or has some other motive.
Maggie and Julie, men are not the problem, white liberals are not the problem, Muslims are not the problem, Sartre and De Beauvior (both heroes of mine) are not the problem, religion per se is not the problem. Hatred and a readiness to act on it is the problem and that exists everywhere you might care to look.
You might go to a church, synagogue or mosque tomorrow and you will find a lot of love. Why not check out the reality that is in front of your noses instead of filtering it through the prism of your ideology.
I don’t even have the strength right now to read the comments above – so this is just what I think…..
Yesterday I went to Blackburn, where the EDL also were, to take part in the counter demonstration/celebration of multicultural Blackburn. It was a genuinely moving, positive and uplifting occasion, with participants from a wide range of backgrounds.
I went with 3 friends, 2 lesbians and one bisexual woman – all white. Nobody hassled us or gave us grief, despite the fact that three of us were pretty obvious looking dykes and 2 were an obvious couple. There were a LOT of muslims there – and no trouble. A few of the younger lads threw bangers, well they’re teenage boys – and they’re angry, why shouldn’t be quite frankly, their home town has been invaded by thugs who wish them out of existence. But we had a laugh with them – yes the lot from Muslim Defence League supposedly the scariest extremists of the lot.
We then went to one of my friends house to pick stuff up. There was a pub on the corner with a pissed up bunch of EDL supporters outside. They deliberately blocked the road as we tried to drive past and shouted abuse. I was genuinely scared I was about to actually be beaten up, and I don’t scare that easily. We weren’t- but it turned out, after watching the local news, that the EDL had started infighting among themselves. Because they objected to having an LGBT division, and a Pakistani Christian division. So much for not being homophobic or racist.
My friend (who works in Blackburn and used to live there) talked about a previous protest when Condoleeza Rice visited, when the ‘muslim extremists’ really were out in force. She said it felt distinctly odd to stand in solidarity with people holding placards that said “death to infidels” – literally with people who wished you dead. She also said how important it was to do it, because she knew it wasn’t just them she was standing in solidarity with.
I have no idea if every single Muslim in Tower Hamlets is homophobic and taking part in homophobic violence, (I strongly doubt it, let’s put it that way) but even if they were, it makes no difference.
The minute you start a sentence with ‘muslims are’ (or ‘jews are’, or ‘catholics are’ or ‘gypsies are’ etc etc etc), you ally yourself with the far right, the likes of the EDL and the BNP, those who think we should discriminate against people based on the colour of their skin, or what they believe.
Why any lesbian or gay man would want to do this is beyond my comprehension – and whether you say you are or not, the minute you characterise muslims as a homogenous threatening group, that is EXACTLY what you are doing. Unless you are completely unaware of history, in which case I strongly suggest you read some.
This was read out (inevitably) yesterday, but it bears repeating.
First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me
Also what Nigel and William said.
Ok: Maggie:
Interesting article re the way in which the police handle homophobic attacks, which is the essential component of the article and isn’t in any way garnering a discussion on muslim = hatred of western society. To say so is to derail.
No it isn’t – that’s the point. It provides no evidence whatsoever of the assertions that it makes, and Nigel has directly contradicted those assertions.
And it ISN’T on the way police handle homophobic attacks as a whole either – it’s about the way police handled one incident – the alleged placing of homophobic stickers by Muslims.
I’ve talked about the time I’ve reported homophobic abuse by white men and received a crap response. Yet an entirely specious conclusion – unsupported by any evidence – has been drawn that police are ignoring things because the supposed perpetrators are Muslims. Have you ever been burgled Maggie?
You’d know if you had that the police are generally crap at tackling most kinds of crime, unless it involves people sitting on the floor in Fortnum and Mason’s.
Here’s a piece from the Hackney Citizen on the incident anyway.
Julie says:
East London, which has the highest Muslim population in London, has seen a significant increase in homophobic attacks in recent years. The two are not unconnected – a recent survey by Gallup found that no British Muslims would say that being lesbian or gay is “morally acceptable.”
If you read the pieces I’ve linked above, this simply isn’t true. From the New Internationalist piece.
There are however huge variations in totals of reported Homophobic Crimes: some Boroughs rise by 60%, others decline by the same amount. I don’t know what may affect reporting of homophobic crime, but on the basis of the information available from the Met, your claims that East London has the highest increase in homophobic crime is TOTALLY inaccurate (and inflammatory).’
(Since then, Hari added a correction to this article: ‘This article originally said Tower Hamlets had the single highest rise in homophobic violence in the UK, when in fact it merely had one of the highest rises over the past decade. Credit to Peter Lilley for emailing to point this out.’)
But Julie Bindel is also falling into the classic correlation = causation trap here. The fact that there are a lot of Muslims in East London and that Muslims think being lesbian or gay is morally unacceptable doesn’t mean that this is the cause of an increase in homophobic attacks. UNLESS she is saying that 10 years ago Muslims were really gay friendly. This is simply shoddy logic.
Maybe more lesbians and gay men have moved into the area? There are a lot of homophobic attacks around Manchester, particularly around Canal street (I’ve been on the receiving end of a couple). And that’s not full of Muslims.
Cath:
But Polly, isn’t part of the issue that in the cases you link to the police or whoever responded and dealt with them appropriately, whereas what Julie, Johann and others are saying is that in this instance the police have tried to cover it up.
Also, I didn’t read Julie as saying that all muslims were doing this, or that all muslims are homophobes. Indeed, if I had read that into it I wouldn’t have posted the article.
To repeat what I’ve quoted above.
East London, which has the highest Muslim population in London, has seen a significant increase in homophobic attacks in recent years. The two are not unconnected – a recent survey by Gallup found that no British Muslims would say that being lesbian or gay is “morally acceptable.”
That is very much what is being implied there I’m afraid. And exactly what Johann Hari in his much criticised piece implied. Muslims are a threat to lesbians and gay men. All Muslims are homophobic. They are a threat because they are muslims. What else could that passage mean exactly?
And going through my Daily Mail links. The pensioner who was talked to by police WASN’T charged. Stephen Green of Christian voice was arrested and charged under the public order act – largely because he was openly giving out leaflets,at a gay pride festival and was easy to catch. Please note from that piece.
“The Met Police in London also investigated former Muslim Council of Britain leader Sir Iqbal Sacranie after he gave an interview saying homosexuality was harmful. However, no prosecution followed in that case.”
So maybe decisions on prosecutions are based on the likelihood of a conviction and the impact of the offence? Is that possible?
When a gay man was murdered, someone was convicted….
Julie and Johann are saying that the police are trying to cover things up, where is their evidence for this exactly? I’d really like to see it.
I’ve searched for sources that would back up either point of view, but I can’t find any. So all we have at the moment are a set of unproven assertions.
Julie Bindel:
Iam shocked and appalled at some of the comments on this thread. Is it self-loathing, or merely a desire to be seen as more right-on than thou?
No, it’s a desire not to give support to the EDL and the BNP and have them come and kick the shit (and worse) out of me. Will people PLEASE read some history. Or be doomed to repeat it.
And:
Luca,
“Potential rise of homophobic attack could also be analysed in the context of huge influx of LGBTs. ”
So if queers are getting attacked it is their own fault for moving there?
Remarkable, absolutely remarkable.
Yes a grasp of mathematics is INDEED wonderful.
It goes like this. If 10% of the gay community are subject to homophobic attack, and there are 10 gay people living in the area, the number of attacks = 1.
If there are 100 gay people living in the area and 10% of them are subject to attack then the number of attacks = 10.
And so on.
Fab libber:
Muslim men HATE HATE HATE females, any females, but particularly non-Muslim females. They do not care if you get beaten up on the street, they stand around and watch. Yes, that actually happened to me.
A trainful of (white) people stood and watched a (white) man shout homophobic abuse at me. Not only did not one step forward, but they actively denied it had happened when I fetched the driver. I got off to phone the police and a guy who’d got off with me asked if was Ok, and when I said no, said he’d thought it was being dealt with,but he’d had earphones in and was unclear what was happening.
He was the only one though.
Polly/Luca
Are you really that stupid? Attacks on gay people and levels of homophobia cannot be measured by percentages. If one gay man or lesbian is beaten up in a particular area that means that at least one homophobe violently attacked a gay person. If ten are beaten up that means that at least ten homophobes are active in the area, and so on. Or are you suggesting that we bring our own pet homophobe with us when we move into an area???
If ten are beaten up that means that at least ten homophobes are active in the area
No it doesn’t. It could easily be still one (busy) homophobe.
Oh I’ve been a bit remiss with my Daily Mail trawling:
The case against Stephen Green for distributing homophobic leaflets was DROPPED.
The case against the head of a Christian lobby group accused of breaching public order at a gay festival was discontinued today.
The Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) has decided not to prosecute Stephen Green, the national director of Christian Voice, on the grounds of insufficient evidence.
Mr Green, 54, of Wernlwyd, Penybont, Carmarthen, West Wales, was charged by South Wales Police with using threatening behaviour or insulting words or behaviour likely to cause harassment, alarm or distress.
He was arrested, detained in a cell for four hours and then charged after handing out leaflets at Cardiff’s Mardi Gras earlier this month entitled “Same-Sex Love, Same-Sex Sex: What Does The Bible Say?”
Mr Green, who is now considering taking civil action against the police, said: “I’m quite pleased the CPS had the good sense to drop this case at an early stage.
“The police should never have arrested me in the first place, let alone charged me.”
He added: “To have the Gospel trampled on in the capital city of Wales is a big wake-up call to evangelists.”
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-407511/Case-dropped-Christian-gay-festival-leaflets.html#ixzz1IU5V78V4
“Muslim men HATE HATE HATE females, any females, but particularly non-Muslim females. ”
Sorry to read what happened to you, Polly. It’s not only females that are hated though – and of course as you know it’s not only muslims who do the hating – Christians and Jews can be just as bad too. I wonder if anyone on the train would have stood up for me if religous people had shouted abuse at me for being a male atheist? Since I’m also German, what’s the betting that they wouldn’t have also joined in by racially abusing me because of my nationality – as so many people hate Germans too? When it comes down to it people are just to scared to get involved when trouble raises its head because they fear for their own safety.
rorschach – my formatting went amiss, my first paragraph was a quote from fab libber’s comment further up, not me speaking.
Oh and it seems Stephen Green is an all round lovely bloke.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1351585/Stephen-Green-rails-immorality-voice-Christian-Britan-private-wife-beater-says-partner.html
Caroline Green was often punished by her husband Stephen for failing to be a dutiful, compliant wife, but his final act of violence against her — the one that prompted her long-overdue decision to divorce him — was all the more chilling because it was coldly premeditated.
Stephen Green wrote a list of his wife’s failings then described the weapon he would make to beat her with.
‘He told me he’d make a piece of wood into a sort of witch’s broom and hit me with it, which he did,’ she recalls, her voice tentative and quiet. ‘He hit me until I bled. I was terrified. I can still remember the pain.
‘Stephen listed my misdemeanours: I was disrespectful and disobedient; I wasn’t loving or submissive enough and I was undermining him. He also said I wasn’t giving him his conjugal rights.
‘He even framed our marriage vows — he always put particular emphasis on my promise to obey him — and hung them over our bed. He believed there was no such thing as marital rape and for years I’d been reluctant to have sex with him, but he said it was my duty and was angry if I refused him
So shall we now all campaign against christians getting away with things?
Oh and what spicy said – as I’ve already pointed out, you get a lot of homophobes hanging around Canal Street wanting to start a ruck. Because there are a lot of gay people there. I’ve seen it happen – a bunch of males invade a largely lesbian bar and start sexually assaulting (no other word for it) the women on the dance floor. The owner chucked them out. I was still scared that they were going to be waiting outside for us.
They were white of course. Gay bashing is a bit of a sport Julie, like hunting. They go where the queers hang out.
Actually according to Stonewall you’re more likely to be the victim of a hate crime in the North of England.
Click to access homophobic_hate_crime__final_report.pdf
There are also regional differences. Over one in six lesbian
and gay people in the north of England have experienced
one or more hate incidents in the last year, compared to one
in eight in London and one in ten in the rest of the south
This report also tells us that:
-3 out of 5 of those reporting hate crime say it is perpetrated by someone under 25. (obviously this must be a guesstimate, since you don’t ask an attacker for ID)
-1 in 6 say the attack was perpetrated by someone in their local area.
-only 1 percent of homophobic hate crimes result in a conviction (that’s even worse than rape at 5.6%
-Half of all hate incidents reported to the police resulted in no action other than it being recorded.
It’s a fairly recent report (2008) so I would assume that it’s findings are still relevant.
You know what, there’s a really good piece to be written about the failure of police to act on homophobic hate crime. This isn’t it though.
Oh and I recommend this.
http://divamagblog.blogspot.com/2011/03/liberal-bigot-when-racism-and-gay-pride.html
I note that Julie and other supporters of the east End gay Pride event do not consider it significant that a former EDL member and co-founder was a key player in the East End Gay Pride Committee (EEGP). And that another member of the committee had fraternal conversations with an EDL member on the East End Gay Pride facebook page.
And then there was the pink Union flag (yuk), the pearly kings and queens (and yuk again) and the march to a pub. I think the message was clear; the East End is white, patriotic and drinks alcohol.
Julie clearly shows that there are sections of our community that are moving into a dangerous political alignment with the far right and that Johann Hari and Paul Burston are also illustrative of this trend.
Polly, I must be ”that stupid” too, because I couldn’t agree more with all that you’ve said!
Exactly William. And if you want to talk about self loathing, lesbians and gay men who want to make themselves poster girls and boys for people who’d probably quite happily see us all dead takes some beating – pardon the pun.
Oh and for those who claim to be feminists and simultaneously propagate Islamophobia, look who’s losing out.
http://www.islamophobia-watch.com/islamophobia-watch/2011/4/4/veiled-muslim-women-are-under-attack-in-the-uk-claims-new-re.html
Fantastic comments from you, Polly, William and cece.disco, and others in a similar vein. Thank you for taking the time to write and for solidly challenging Julie and Johann’s arguments, and for not rising to the rudeness with which she responded in her two comments.
@Polly
“You know what, there’s a really good piece to be written about the failure of police to act on homophobic hate crime. This isn’t it though”.
I agree. Particularly as there is one aspect of homophobic hate crime which demands a better response: one in eight lesbian and gay people experiencing homophobic hate incidents have experienced unwanted sexual contact as part of the incident, according to the Stonewall 2008 report.
Islam – in reality as it is taught and practiced – does not want people to have consenting relationships.
Human beings consentually choosing another human being, and the sex/colour/ place of birth/whatever else basic characteristic of that partner being irrelevant to the status of that relationship ?
Not a chance.
Women are property, denied freedom and autonomy and with dire consequences for stepping out of line, and men are the true and rightful owners of their daughters, sisters, cousins, wives.
I personally have no inclination to defend such a inhumane system in any way shape or form. It’s a culture that is deeply and foundationally misogynistic, and massively homophobic too.
And bear in mind, what we are talking about “culture” here, it is *male* culture. As in most all discusions about “tolerance” “diversity” and such like – it’s about men who subscribe to version (A) of patriarchal control freakery being respected by men (and their chattel) who subscribe to version (B/C/D) of patriarchal control freakery instead.
Why defend any of them ?
This is why the EDL can fuck off. They are just another group of whiny men bleating about how “those men over there are taking our things, and not allowing us to be kings of the whole universe, it’s so not faiiiir we are so oppressed” . Exactly the same as whiny Muslim (or any other) men.
It is a real trap to get into the whole “musn’t object to these particular homophobes, because ….. look over there !!!!!!”.
You know, it’s like when women say that the pornstitution industry and culture we live in savages women’s bodys, souls, humanity, relationships. And the rape apologists turn round and go “aha, you prudes, you are in bed with the Religious Right !! …. you are giving fuel to people who hate you aha, aha !!”
It’s bullshit.
Muslim men want lesbians and gay men dead, and raped, and silenced (I would say more so than the EDL because it is more fundamental to their identity than it is to the nationalists) and they are already doing it – right now here in the UK – mostly to Muslim women of course because those are the ones to hand.
But that’s a consequence of any deeply controlling and patriarchal culture – the women within that culture suffer most, then women who “belong” to other men whenever there is the chance, and then the “wrong sort” of men if they get in the way.
Why the hell defend this ? Why ?
It isn’t a question of defending homophobes, or men who want women raped, or men who oppress women. They exist in every culture.
It’s a question of Islamophobia being the respectable face of racism. There are lesbian and gay muslims. There are female muslims. Hell even JOHANN HARI admits he has met ‘brave and humane muslims’.
Most people who are Muslims in Britain didn’t convert, they are from an ethnic group that is largely Muslim – and they will stay muslim even if they’re gay. And just as all Christians aren’t the Westboro baptist church, not all Muslims are extremists either.
If a particular muslim man wants lesbians and gay men raped and silenced – or rapes and beats women – they should be dealt with by the law. It probably won’t happen – just as Stephen Green wasn’t dealt with by the law. But they should be.
However saying every single muslim man wants this – unless you can prove it, which I would strongly suggest you can’t – is only one thing. And that thing is RACIST.
Because we don’t say every single christian man want this (though many do). We don’t say every single atheist man wants this (though many do). We don’t say every single right wing man wants this (though many do). We don’t say every single left wing man wants this (though many do).
Islamophobia is the respectable face of racism. End of.
Police release CCTV image of man wanted for anti-gay stickers
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2011/04/05/police-release-cctv-image-of-man-wanted-for-anti-gay-stickers/
Funny really, my great nephew has muslim grandparents on one side, his mother being from Turkey and all. Suppose I’d better watch out for the little tyke, in case he starts oppressing me….
Oh no, it turns out the police ARE investigating! You know, as in an investigation that takes some time, because legal wheels grind exceedingly slow…Cheers zefrog.
Meanwhile a ‘regular churchgoer’ is jailed for sexually assaulting a lesbian couple.
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2011/04/04/man-jailed-for-21-year-old-sex-attack-on-lesbian-couple/
30 attend London East End gay Pride march
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2011/04/04/30-attend-london-east-end-gay-pride-march/
“However saying every single muslim man wants this – unless you can prove it, which I would strongly suggest you can’t – is only one thing. And that thing is RACIST. ”
This is a very poor argument Polly.
When you yourself say that the EDL are “people who’d probably quite happily see us all dead” do you really mean *every single EDL supporter ever and you can prove it* ?
I think it’s unlikely that you are saying that. I think it’s unlikely that that is the case even if you are saying it or not, particularly so as their primary identity is not really about misogyny and gay-bashing.
So when I say that “Muslim men” you should know full well I do not mean every single Muslim man who ever breathed is sitting there right now plotting murder. I am talking, as I said, about a culture, a male culture that is utterly rooted in a hatred of women, of consentuality and by extension lesbian and gay relationships. And that Muslim women (lesbian or otherwise) are the ones who suffer most directly from this.
and first hand account of the march http://sosogay.org/2011/east-end-pride-gathering-march/
The EDL are people who have CHOSEN an ideology – a racist ideology. Many have criminal convictions, and one of their founders is a convicted child sex offender. Most muslims are cultural muslims. They didn’t choose to be be muslim, they were born muslim, and the majority British muslims are from Pakistan. So yes I do think the average EDL member is more of a threat than the average muslim. Oh and the EDL are mostly white, apart from that bloke who claims to a be a Sikh.
We used to call people from Pakistan ‘Pakis’ and discriminate against them on that basis. Now of course times have moved on and that’s a bit unacceptable. So instead we complain about ‘muslims’.
If you want to complain about religion as a whole, or religious extremists, fine. If you choose to single out one particular religion, that is mostly practised by an ethnic minority, you’re racist. End of.
You also said:
Muslim men want lesbians and gay men dead, and raped, and silenced (I would say more so than the EDL because it is more fundamental to their identity than it is to the nationalists)
I call bullshit.
when I say the majority of British muslims are from Pakistan, I should say more accurately that they are from an ethnic group that originated in Pakistan. A large number were born in the UK.
Can you point to anywhere Parallel where I have defended muslims who are also homophobic? Or muslims who also beat women? Anywhere?
No, because I haven’t done it.
I have said Muslims should be judged on the basis of what they do, not their membership of a particular religion. Which for most is connected with their ethnic origin.
If you want to complain about religion as a whole, or religious extremists, fine.
Which I do, often. I am not the EDL, I am an atheist who happens to think:
1) Women are human
2) relationships should be consensual
3) no consensual relationship has any better status than any other.
4) any patriarchal religion or any secular culture that is against 1) and 2) and 3) in their teaching and/or day to day practice is vile and worthy of nothing but contempt
5) any man or group of men that props that religion/culture up and defends it whether through overt violence (or through being a kinder nicer upstanding-citizen chauvanist to their chattel (even if the poor little men just can’t help it because they were born into it ????) ) is ditto.
If you choose to single out one particular religion, that is mostly practised by an ethnic minority, you’re racist.
If the discussion is about any one religion and any one set of incidents – whether it’s abuses perpetrated and covered up by the Catholic Church, homophobia preached and practiced by Muslims, anti-woman legislation being pushed by American Christian Fundies, whatever – then it is not “singling out” it is discussing the topic at hand.
Can you point to anywhere Parallel where I have defended muslims who are also homophobic? Or muslims who also beat women? Anywhere?
I don’t think you personally are defending gay bashers and wife beaters here. Plenty of people however are quite willing to do so (or at least see it swept under the carpet) in the guise of Not Being Racist, and that is both very stupid and a real problem when it comes to confronting the wrongdoings of the homophobes, misogynists and anti-women cultures in general.
Parallel – where exactly does islam say relationships should be non consensual? I’m not an expert, but I’m willing to be convinced.
This piece is EXACTLY about singling out one religion and making a lot of bullshit claims about how everyone who has that religion is a homophobe and a danger to gay people. Furthermore, it then claims that police weren’t investigating a homophobic incident because it was perpetrated by muslims when it turns out – hey – that they WERE investigating it. And as I’ve pointed out, the police are fairly crap at investigating homophobic crime in general.
None of the objections raised to this by me or anyone else are defending homophobic acts perpetrated by muslims, or domestic violence perpetrated by muslims or anything else. It is saying that these behaviours are not an inevitable consequence of being a muslim.
And the idea that they are is being exploited by racists to their own ends, and that anyone who supports this idea is giving succour and support to and playing right into the hands of racists.
One type of oppression cannot be defeated with another type of oppression. The masters tools will never dismantle the masters house.
Polly – what do you think you’re achieving here?
where exactly does islam say relationships should be non consensual?
If I said that the Catholic Church was anti-woman, anti-gay and anti-consent then most people on here would acknowledge that. But you think Islam isn’t ? In reality as taught and practiced in the UK ? It is the nature of the religion that women are second to men in every way and homosexuality is forbidden.
Women who want their bodily autonomy recognised, women who choose relationships with non-Muslims, men and women who choose same-sex partners, women who want “Western-style independence” – these are all are by definition “anti Islamic”. (and yes, Muslims do do these things, but they are *going against their religion* when they do so. Autonomy and consent for women is NOT endorsed by Islam).
It is a very controlling, misogynistic and homophobic philosophy, how is is NOT anti-consent ?
One type of oppression cannot be defeated with another type of oppression.
Pointing out homophobic and misogynistic behaviour and attitude is not oppression. And just because not every Muslimin the country is obviously violent towards the (not-fully-human) women and gays, doesn’t meant that the misogyny and homophobia is not there, supported and condoned and unchallenged.
What do I think I’m achieving? Well I’m talking on the internet, so most likely nothing. But what I am pointing out is that the far right is using supposed muslim homophobia for its own ends. And that any person who has reason to be concerned about homophobia who falls for that is being a bit of a useful idiot.
What are you achieving?
No Parallel, pointing out homophobia and misogynistic behaviour isn’t oppression. I’m all for it. Stereotyping a group of people who are mostly of a particular ethnic minority as a threat without any evidence is though. It’s called racism. Or Xenophobia if you want to be all fancy.
The point is that in most parts of mainland UK (well at least those where sectarianism doesn’t thrive) you don’t get beaten up for being a Catholic. The Daily Mail doesn’t publish pieces railing against catholics on an almost daily basis and claiming they are responsible for nonsense like having swimming pool windows blacked out, or stopping cafes serving bacon. The BNP doesn’t want to deport Catholics. Gangs of 2000 pissed up ex soccer casuals don’t go round vandalising Catholic churches.
And so on and so on and so on.
And claiming the police aren’t investigating something, because they don’t want to offend muslims, when it turns out they are is just plain misrepresentation at best.
So basically, polly, Christian homophobia exists and so it isn’t just a Muslim thing – well congratulations to you for both erecting and destroying that particular straw man because nobody was making that argument. As for people not being beaten up for being Catholics (I would check out Glasgow after an old firm game before you make such confident assertions, incidentally), neither are they being beaten up for being Muslims in any great numbers and certainly not by gay people. So what is your point? I don’t see it other than you tilting at your own windmills.
Put ‘muslim’ into the daily mail search engine Parallel.
This is one result.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-476542/A-Britons-believe-You-British-AND-Muslim.html
I said apart from those parts where sectarianism thrive – read properly please.
Well people aren’t being beaten up for being Catholics by gay people either are they? Your point being?
The argument that’s being made here is that the police are ignoring muslim homophobia. And it’s bollocks. As the latest links provided by zefrog show.
http://www.24dash.com/news/communities/2011-04-04-Veiled-Muslim-women-are-under-attack-in-the-UK-claims-new-research
http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/news/law-and-order/far_right_groups_may_be_fuelling_increase_in_city_race_attacks_1_2541397
The vast majority of reported hate crimes are racially motivated.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11875321
More windmills, polly.
The police asked that LGBT organizations be complicit with a lie – that the posters were NOT the work of Muslims. You seem remarkably equanimous about that, preferring instead to do the equivalent of rattling shiny objects in order to distract attention.
“Oh look, racism.” “Oh look, Christian homophobia” “Stop looking over there, look here, here, there’s nothing to see over there, nothing at all.”
The police asked that LGBT organizations be complicit with a lie – that the posters were NOT the work of Muslims.
Source?
If they did do that, then why is it now all over Pink News that they are looking for an asian man?
Are you EDL Flaming Fairy? Yes or no will suffice.
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2011/04/05/police-release-cctv-image-of-man-wanted-for-anti-gay-stickers/
In case you can’t read a few comments up.
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2011/03/11/man-arrested-released-over-east-end-anti-gay-stickers/
In case you also can’t follow links.
Ah I see so along comes the inevitable insinuation that I am EDL. Polly, you are part of the problem, not part of the solution.
Did you even read Julie’s article before wading in with your link blizzard, straw men and nasty innuendoes?
Yes of course I read Julies’s article – mine is the first response if you bother to read. And I asked if you were EDL, I didn’t insinuate anything. You can still say no. I note you didn’t though.
I’m hardly unfamiliar with this row, even though I live nowhere near London.
But like you Julie – despite being asked several times, and not only by me -has provided no source for the allegations she makes.
What is your source for these allegations? I’ll ask again.
Yes of course I read Julies’s article – mine is the first response if you bother to read.
And your first response is to start gabbing on about Christian homophobia. Tell me – had this been a story about Christians putting up homophobic stickers, would your first response be anything like the one here? I’m guessing not. I’m guessing there would be no cascade of links, no irrelevant wibble about racism and certainly no pointing the other way going “yeah but look at these SIKH homophobes”. I’m guessing there would be just an out and out condemnation, with no shading or nuance or contextualisation at all. Why is it religious bigots from a certain faith community get an easy ride from you?
And I asked if you were EDL, I didn’t insinuate anything. You can still say no. I note you didn’t though.
Because your question is an insult, and you know it.
I’m hardly unfamiliar with this row, even though I live nowhere near London.
And there you have it. You don’t know what the hell you’re talking about.
But many other contributors to the thread DO live in London.
And where have I said muslims who commit hate crimes should get an easy ride? Please quote back to me where I say that?
I’ve put two direct questions to you, which you are constantly avoiding by making irrelevant counter accusations. Let’s repeat them.
Are you EDL? If you’re insulted by the idea why not say ‘no’?
What is your source for the allegation that
The police asked that LGBT organizations be complicit with a lie – that the posters were NOT the work of Muslims.
My objection to this piece is that it consists entirely of unsubstantiated allegations, which have been consquently disproved. That’s my objection to it.
And I’m wondering what the motivation for it is.
If you don’t want to answer question 1) you can still answer question 2). It is
What is your source for the allegation that
The police asked that LGBT organizations be complicit with a lie – that the posters were NOT the work of Muslims.
Police then claimed that it was the EDL that put up the stickers in order to unfairly malign the Muslim community and stir up further divisions and hatred in the East End. Having failed to take definitive action against homophobic Islamists in the past, police turned its attention away from the real perpetrators altogether, as it has since been revealed that the EDL were not involved in the sticker incidents. Further, according to gay human rights activist Peter Tatchell, the police have known all along that it was instigated by homophobic Muslim youths.
What’s the evidence for any of this?
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2011/03/14/open-letter-to-the-organisers-of-east-end-gay-pride/
The open letter from Out East to the organisers of East End Pride
As a result of the recent homophobic stickers that appeared in Shoreditch, Stoke Newington and broader East London, you have decided to organise a Pride March event on the 2nd April. Out East, with other local LGBTQ community groups, has great concerns about this demonstration and we have decided neither to participate in the event nor to call our supporters to be part of it, and we think it important to express the reasons why.
Firstly, it is not clear who is behind the stickers and the police are still investigating that issue. However, what is clear is that the message of the stickers identifies Islam as the cause for this hate. There have been allegations that it is an attempt from far right groups to stigmatise Muslim people. Whether this is true or not, what will remain in people’s minds is that Muslim people as a whole group are the cause for homophobia. It may not be the intention of East End Gay Pride to endorse this message but having a short term response and an emotional reaction to these stickers risks antagonising and scapegoating Muslim communities. Out East refuses that LGBTQ rights or pride demonstrations are used to promote islamophobia even if not intentionally. Furthermore the council, the mayor, the East London Mosque and the interfaith community worked with local LGBTQ people to take a stand against homophobia and support the police. Neither yourselves or the majority of the media have highlighted this approach, leaving the wrong impression that the east end is actually in danger of becoming a ‘gay-free zone’.
Secondly, we have serious concerns about the close links that this event and some of its organisers have with the English Defence League. This ranges from one organiser stating they are supporting the event on the Facebook group, to inviting Facebook members with EDL logos as their profiles to participate, and some organisers having EDL friends on their profiles*. This has been further compounded by the fact that East End Gay Pride has banned anti-fascist group UAF from attending the event. In addition to this, East End Gay Pride organisers have made it clear that they don’t want the event to be political.
On the contrary, we believe that our response to homophobia can only be a political response and must therefore include all political groups who are working against all discrimination. Taking this political position automatically excludes far right groups who preach a message of exclusion and East End Gay Pride should make it clear that such groups, including the EDL, are not welcome at this event. Instead, the organisers of East End Gay Pride prefer to say that everyone is welcome as long as they don’t bring any political sign or banner. It is clear from comments made on Facebook and responses to articles referring to East End Gay Pride that EDL members will be tolerated if they carry no specifically political signage. If nothing is clearly done to prevent EDL individuals taking part in East End Gay Pride we have great concerns regarding the safety of all the participants, including LGBTQ people themselves who have been repeatedly the target of the far right.
In addition, Out East believes that our response to homophobia must be political because homophobia is a system which is present everywhere and not only a hate feeling from particular groups or individuals. Homophobia is not caused only by one particular group but is part of broader society and has political roots. It is easy to portray other minorities (even unintentionally) as the cause of homophobia rather than, for example, questioning the lack of means to fight discrimination in a period of cuts in public services. Instead, we want to highlight the intersection between sexuality, gender, race and class oppression. Homophobia is fed by political practices and ideologies which in turn encourage individuals to commit discriminatory acts.
Thirdly, we believe that the most appropriate response to the stickers is to liaise with Muslim communities and others to create bridges and communicate with each other. We want both homophobia and islamophobia addressed as a collective problem and not feed one against the other, we do not recognise these as distinct categories. We will refuse any attempt to divide our communities or take the risk that an LGBTQ event is used to oppress other marginalised groups, in particular LGBTQ Muslims who will be the most affected by this rising antagonism.
We cannot disconnect this particular event from the more general trend in western countries to use LGBTQ liberation campaigns and feminism as a way to stigmatise migrants and Islam as a monolithic culture or Muslim people as uncivilised, barbaric terrorists or hateful invaders.
We applaud the work of Rainbow Hamlets, the Tower Hamlets LGBT Forum to which we belong. It is building meaningful open dialogue between all communities, so that each addresses issues of homophobia, transphobia, islamaphobia and racism in their own midsts. We, in common with Rainbow Hamlets, would like public meetings to happen in East London where LGBTQ and Muslim communities come together and discuss the issues of homophobia, transphobia, islamophobia and racism and how we can all fight together against all discrimination. We welcome working with the local councils in East London to facilitate the organisation of these public meetings by providing safe spaces in which to meet and link all of our groups and organisations together.
For all the reasons above, we call on you and the organisations supporting this event to cancel it with a view to working with the local communities of the East End to ensure active, inclusive responses are made to homophobia, which do not inadvertently contribute to community tensions.
We encourage all other groups who agree with us to co-sign this letter and those already involved to reconsider their support.
On behalf of Out East,
Thierry Schaffauser, Chair.
Terry Stewart, Hackney Community Engagement Board.
[Denis Fernando of Unite Against Fascism and the Greater London Association of Trade Union Councils have also given their support to the letter]
You have decided in your own head what is the story here Polly and you have similarly decided I am EDL (because nobody could have a problem with your tactics here except an EDL member, right?), so any denial on my part would be futile even though true. Similarly, any source you’d be given would never be substantial enough to satisfy you. So what’s the point.
As I said, you and people like you are part of the problem. A major part of the problem.
I repeat:
What is your source for these allegations?
Flimsy, substantial, let’s have it. Any source?
I think we know what the answer is.
Does it ever occur to you (and the other eejits that have gone on about this) that there is such a thing as contempt of court? And that cases have been thrown out of court because prior publicity makes a fair trial impossible? And that police don’t want to prejudice their chances of getting a conviction by saying that anyone was responsible until they have enough proof?
The way our legal system works is that you are innocent until proven guilty. Though I suppose you would prefer it to be ‘innocent until I decide based on completely unsubstantiated rumour you are guilty’.
Oh and for anyone who doubts that the EDL try to exploit situations to their advantage – in Blackburn they held up placards of local victims of ‘hit and run’ accidents in which the guilty parties were Muslim (not very amazing in a town with a very high Muslim population). They did this AGAINST THE WISHES of the relatives of these victims.
http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/8955666.Blackburn_protests__Hit_and_run_victim_s_family_condemn_EDL_use_of_photo/?ref=mr
THE family of a grandmother killed in a hit-and-run have condemned the English Defence League for using her image on placards.
Freda Holt was one of several local faces used by 2,000 EDL protesters during Saturday’s town centre demonstration.
The grandmother from Revidge Road, Blackburn, died after being knocked down by speeding unlicensed and uninsured driver Salim Chand last November.
Chand, 27, was jailed for nine years. The EDL said it was highlighting ‘hit-and-runs by Muslims’.
But Freda’s husband Ray Holt, 72, said: “It would have been the very last thing Freda would have wanted.
“She was all about live and let live. She would have been absolutely horrified.
“As far as I am concerned he (Salim Chand) was an idiot driver.
“It’s got nothing to do with him being a Muslim.
“I had no knowledge of it and nobody had approached me to ask.
“I was in the town centre on Saturday but fortunately left before the protest because I don’t know what I would have done if I’d have seen her picture being used by the EDL.”
On Sunday, the family went to Mass and prayed for Freda and then put flowers on her grave at Pleasington Cemetery to mark what would have been her 71st birthday and Mother’s Day.
Eldest son Richard, 45, said he was shocked when he realised on Monday what had happened.
He said: “As a family all we wanted was justice for our mother regardless of race, colour or creed.
“The use of my mother’s picture was neither given permission for, or condoned, by us.
“My mother was a devout Catholic and would accept and help anyone, should they require it, which she had done countless times in her life.
“This is absolutely not what our mother stood for. As a family we do not wish to be linked in any way with EDL or any similar organisation.
Freda’s daughter Rachel Harling, from Rishton, said she has seen the picture on an EDL website and felt ‘quite sick’.
She said: “It was nothing to do with race or religion. It could have been anyone behind the wheel.”
Paul Houston, the father of 12-year-old Amy Houston, whose image was another of those used by the EDL, has also distanced himself from ‘extremism’.
That’s the type of people they are.
Read this. Freedom of Information Request request analysis on hate crimes in London:
http://andysmiscellany.wordpress.com/2011/04/08/foi-request-analysis-homophobic-crime-figures-for-london/
Homophobic crime figures for London produces some very interesting data that takes the rug from under Johann’s Hari’s and Julie’s argument. Oh dear, that just leaves these 2 and their followers with the Mori poll then! Oh and some rather unpleasant and unsubstantiated rumours.
sorry Gallup , not Mori
Please check out the facebook group; East London is a Hate Free Zone – for a different approach to the issue of hate crime.
Interesting figures indeed William, and a thorough piece of analysis. Perhaps professional journalists could learn something from it.
One more thing that would be interesting to factor in of course is levels of deprivation – there may well be a correlation between them and levels of homophobic violence.
Attitude surveys are quite revealing. Written by an ex-muslim:
“The reality is that the status quo in Western Europe is toward acceptance of homosexuality without the sort of debates we have in the United States. Interestingly you can’t even calculate a real ratio for British Muslims to the general public, not one British Muslim surveyed would admit to homosexuality being morally acceptable. ”
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/12/admissions-of-illiberalism/
That’s the same poll that has already been discussed Schwarz. And was of 500 British Muslims. A lot of the links above critique it. But even if it is correct, the fact that someone thinks something is ‘morally unnacceptable’ doesn’t translate into them being more likely to commit violence.
Polly, a late comment to say thank you for poking a hole in the smelly bag of racism created by this article, and for consistently asking the questions which need to be asked. The fact that Julie Bindel couldn’t answer a single one of your points is very, very telling.
Cath: I am usually in agreement with your writings, but why on earth did you allow this disingenuous and frankly rather nasty piece to be published on your blog?
I do not want to ‘disappear’ the homophobic incidents committed by some people who also happen to be Muslims. But Julie’s piece leaves a very nasty taste in the mouth; it’s not a helpful contribution to the debate.
I lived in Tower Hamlets for five years with an openly gay flatmate. He never once told me of any homophobic incident he had encountered in Bow; in fact, the only time I can recall where his being gay seemed like it might have led to trouble was when a load of pissed-up West Ham and Tottenham fans (99% white, presumably non-Muslim) were having a riot at Mile End while we attempted to walk home. (A West Ham fan decided to go on at us about his feelings about the “bloody yids” – again, one of the few times I encountered racist terms used publicly in Tower Hamlets during my time living there.)
WRT the stickers: one person, or – at most – a small group of people conspire to cover the East End in anti-LGBT propaganda, and the reaction from some quarters is to label ALL Muslims homophobes? Er. No. That’s not on. Not at all.
I am your typical atheist feminist who is distrustful of religion in general; please don’t think I am giving religious people any kind of pass to commit hate crimes based on their beliefs. But the aim of reducing homophobic sentiment in the Muslim community is not going to be furthered by a divisive march organised by people only a shade removed from far-right white nationalists. How would you feel if you were in their shoes? Under attack, maybe? Unfairly slandered? Angered by the blanket dismissal of your friends and family and neighbours as backwards homophobes? I’d imagine so. Would such a march encourage you to reach out to LGBT groups, and to listen to what they have to say? Hardly. People who feel attacked become, um, defensive, which hardly fosters productive and respectful dialogue. (This is not, of course, to say that Pride marches in the East End are impossible – just that they have to make a dedicated effort to reach out to ALL sectors of the community, and not to exclude anyone from the outset.)
Outraged by the stickers, I initially signed up for the march; after some reflection, and after the EDL links came to light, I reversed my position. In this case, the enemy – the EDL – of my enemy – a few homophobic people – is certainly not my friend. Just as I would never share any kind of platform with the EDL, no way was I going to attend an event they implicitly or explicitly supported.
Oh, on the EDL and gay rights? A friend of mine who keeps track of right-wing infighting says that the gay grouping within the EDL recently left the cause… in disgust at the homophobic abuse they suffered from the more unreconstructed members of the EDL’s support base. Something to consider, isn’t it?
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2011/05/11/man-charged-over-east-end-anti-gay-stickers/
Oh and thanks Jo…